Splitting Electoral Votes?

Should States split their Electoral Votes?

  • All states should split Electoral Votes.

    Votes: 42 58.3%
  • States should only split Electoral Votes if their citizens vote to do so.

    Votes: 12 16.7%
  • No states should split Electoral Votes - winner takes all!

    Votes: 14 19.4%
  • Other/No opinion.

    Votes: 4 5.6%

  • Total voters
    72
QwertySoft said:
Well, this is the idea me and a few friends came up with after 2000:
Each congressional district gets one vote(for the representatives). Whomever wins the popular vote in that district gets that one vote. However, the number of electoral votes in a state = number of representatives + number of senators. So, how do you decide the other two? Whomever gets the total popular vote would get both of them. That would sort of keep the "winner take all" approach, plus in states with 3 or 4 electorals would also still be "winner take all".

For what it's worth, that's exactly how Nebraska (5 votes) and Maine (4) do it right now. In the combined ten or so presidential elections, they've never actually split their vote, though. I do wholeheartedly agree that all states should adopt it.
 
I'm for getting rid of the electoral college. If we must keep it, then I'm for splitting electoral votes in all states. I'm also for giving more rights to the US non-states (Guam, Puerto Rico, etc.).
 
ManOfMiracles said:
I'm for getting rid of the electoral college. If we must keep it, then I'm for splitting electoral votes in all states. I'm also for giving more rights to the US non-states (Guam, Puerto Rico, etc.).

As soon as they start paying taxes, then by all means give them population-appropriate electoral votes. :)
 
Rhymes said:
A strong democracy should always use the most representative way of electing. In the US case, splitting the electoral votes is the best way of getting closer to that objective. I keep asking myslef why the idea hasn't been brought before.
Simple. America is not a Democracy. It is a Republic. Pure democracy will eventually collapse on itself. Read some de Toqueville...especially the part in which he describes the "Tyranny of the Majority". That Frenchman did more to advance the cause of liberty than any since.

Based on my observations, Pure Democracy is a Bad Idea. Here in Florida, we have a process by which our State Constitution may be amended by referendum on the ballot. In the past 10 years or so we've passed the following public policies:

1) Voted an entire segment of the fishing industry out of existence.

2) Voted for a high speed rail system, with no means to pay for it.

3) Repealed a high speed rail system, because nobody could figure out how to pay for it.

4) Voted for a mandatory maximum student-teacher ratio in public schools, again, with no means to pay for it.

5) Voted for an increase in the minimum wage, with no consideration given as to the inflationary impacts of artificially prescribed minimum wages...

...and I could go on and on....

IMHO, the unwashed masses will vote for just about anything that "sounds like good public policy", regardless of whether it is feasible or wise.

For some reason, I am reminded of an anceint Athenian naval campaign that sounded like a good idea to everybody but the Athenian fishermen...who (unfortunately) were out at sea trying to make a living when the vote was called...

If the Presidency were decided by pure popular vote, Bill Clinton would have been in a run-off with George Bush the elder back in '92. (Lest we forget, Clinton won a plurality, not a majority, in the popular vote...) Where do you think most of those Perot votes would have gone?

If you base your opinions only on what you see today within the context of what "sounds good", you risk ignoring history.

Risk that, and the vagaries of Democracy, at your peril.
 
I did a little study on population-proportionate vote splitting using this year's election.

A couple things of note:

Electoral votes in California would be split with Bush having 24.2, Kerry 30.25 (both would get rounded down) with 1 electoral vote left over. Neither has a high enough remainder to earn that last point (not over .5), yet none of the indepedants earned more than 1% of the vote.

In New York, Nader got 2% of the vote, and each electoral vote amounts to about 3.2% of the vote, so since there is 1 vote left over anyways, that may go to Nader (if not Nader, then it would go to Bush). Kerry would get that state 18-12 (17.98 Kerry, 12.4 Bush)

For third parties to get any electoral votes in California they only need 1.8% of the vote. In small states that have only 3 electoral votes they would need 33% of the vote.

I did not allow for any states to have a tie. So some states went 3-1 or 4-2 even though the results were 50-49%.

I'll have to recalculate if people think it should be ok for states to have a tie in electoral votes.

Kerry swept DC because he won by a 9:1 margin.

Current system (assuming no states change from what I see as results on FOX, which has declared a winner in all states but Iowa where I gave it to Bush since he is winning), the results are
Bush 286
Kerry 252
Nader 0

Using this test, the results would be:
Bush 274
Kerry 262
Nader 1
1 disputed in California

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/electoral_votes_new_system.zip
^
Study done in Microsoft Works Spreadsheet.
 
Other: Popular. There is no sense in holding onto the electoral college, even if you did split up the state into sections it would only have a diluted effect on turnout. With a pure popular vote turnout would be much higher.
 
KaNick said:
With a pure popular vote turnout would be much higher.
Based on what?
 
Your vote actually counts, no matter what state you live in. In some states it is pointless to vote because the other guy is guaranteed a win. If your vote when straight through and not to an electoral college it would be worthwhile to go to the voting boothes and not just stay in bed.
 
Bamspeedy said:
I'll have to recalculate if people think it should be ok for states to have a tie in electoral votes.
Please do :)! I'm sure it won't be much of a difference though.
 
@Bamspeedy: Maybe to preserve a bit of the-winner-takes-all (or rather the winner-takes-more) principle you Americans seem to like so much ;) and to avoid ties, they could assign an odd number of EVs to the smaller states because a 3rd party candidate wouldn't win anything there anyway. Obviously for big states where they would have a chance, that wouldn't make a difference and ties would still be possible (a 27-27-1 split in California for instance).
 
This would radically change the way the political game is played in America.

I like it! :goodjob:
 
I agree that all states should implement this system. That way, every vote will count. Also, the campaigning will be divided between all of the state, rather than a select group of swing states.

I dislike the popular vote, as then less populous states will not have adequate representation in the election. The candidates then would not bother campaigning in Alaska, for example.
 
Splitting the electoral votes could make it easier for third party candidates to get on the ballot. Now it is hard for them to get the required support since so many people think a third party vote is a waste. If we make it easier for these candidates to actually get electoral votes, perhaps the attitude would change.
 
If we split all electoral votes, and it does not round properly, tie would go to whoever has the largest portion of the popular vote.
 
Hygro said:
Hugin, your two (yes its 2, you made it look like 5 but really its 2. Try clicking them yourself) book links don't contradict what I said. One is sort of unrelated (by its summary) about personal heorics, the other is about people not taking action.

There's a key difference between taking action and coming up with the best ideas. Groups of people do not excell at executive abilities, hence why the president is a one man job, not a collective body, whereas Congress consists of many people, because groups are more intellegent.

Ah, terribly sorry about that. Anywho, I fixed them and checked them twice.

But to quickly summarize the point of those collected works, as I want to use them, is that people may be capable of making good decisions but only if people are willing to take the action necessary to make those decisions. It is called the Bystander Effect: large groups of people suppress individual thinking and actions.

Chapter 13 in a psychology textbook by Richard A Lippa (entitled Introduction to Social Psychology http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_3/103-9965055-9521457?v=glance&s=books) recounts, in brief, the tale of one Kitty Genovese. Upon returning to her residents at 3am she is attacked. Thirty-eight (good lord, 38!) of her neighbors in Kew Gardens (where she lived) went to their windows when she cried out but not a single one went to her aid, not a single one even called the police. The murder took a half hour to kill her. The reasoning behind her neighbor's lack of action? Everyone thought someone else would call the police.

If people are unwilling to take action in order to save someone's life how can we expect them to take action in expressing a dissenting opinion from the crowd?

As for your reference, James Surowiecki is a columnist for the New Yorker. Why do I point this out? Because using his work in order to imply that people make good decisions is a logical fallacy (specifically, it is the Appeal to Authority fallacy. Surowiecki is not anymore qualified to write a book on group-think than the random person pulled off the street... of course, that seems to be his entire point). However, even looking past that flaw in your argument, such a book really supports my stance it would seem (from the review).

To make good decisions, crowds need diversity of opinion. People living in the same area tend to hold the same views. Consider how American views (including both right and left Americans) are quite conservative compared to Europe. Consider how people living in the same household tend to have the same beliefs (and, subsequently, when children leave their beliefs change). Consider even how the beliefs of New York City differ from the beliefs of San Francisco.

To make good decisions, crowds need to have the individual members be independent of one another. I've already discussed the Bystander Effect and mob mentality; when in a crowd people begin to loose their individuality.

To make good decisions, crowds need decentralization... meh, I vaguely agree with this one but, as you may notice, large population centers are centralized, hence they are incapable of making good decisions. I would only add that groups of people in any decision-making progress need at least a few people who attempt to keep the group focused on the topic at hand.

To make good decisions, crowds need to aggregate opinions... mesh, this is really true for any decision making process, ranging from a single person on up.

The excerpt from the book itself is rather dubious, the author uses Who Wants to Be a Millionaire as an example to prove his point? All he is showing is that groups of people are more knowledgeable about a wide range of topics yet the conclusion that seems to be drawn from it is that groups of people are more intelligent. From the excerpt, it would appear that Surowiecki failed to distinguish the differences between knowledge and intelligence (and presumably wisdom).

Surowiecki then considers the Challenger explosion, noting that those in the Stock Market "knew" which company was responsible 6 months before the official reports. Making the correct decision in an absolute vacuum of information isn't intelligent, or even knowledgeable, it is damn lucky. Out of four choices of who was at fault, the stock market got one right. 25% chances are pretty good odds.

Anywho

~Hugin

p.s. As a side note, if you ever get the chance, I highly recommend reading Chapter 4 of The Heart of Altruism. Monroe records the tale of a grandmother (with a heart condition and braces on her legs and back) who, single handedly, prevented a rape/murder and beat the would-be rapist nigh senseless, preventing him from getting away. Not particularly related to the topic here in, but quite possibly one of the best real life stories you'll ever hear about (and hilarious, if not in an incredibly serious manner). It is impossible to read that chapter and not come away feeling good about humanity.
 
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