Start is too important.

[Noblosh]

If it’s SP, then restarting is not cheating. You could roll a game with a crappy start, play it all the way until the end (win or lose), and then start another game afterward. Or you could roll a game with a crappy start and immediately restart the game. The only difference is you didn’t just waste time playing a round of a video game which led to no enjoyment whatsoever. To consider it cheating is ridiculously absurd and anybody who says otherwise needs to get their life’s priorities straight and stop treating a video game as some sort of moral litmus test.

Same goes for considering modding cheating right?

Because that's what I meant: as long as modding to get a better starting location is considered cheating, restarting to do the same thing is nothing different.

And if you really want to know, I consider both ways legit, but the modding one more efficient.

 

[chuckh89]

Same goes for considering modding cheating right?

Because that's what I meant: as long as modding to get a better starting location is considered cheating, restarting to do the same thing is nothing different.

And if you really want to know, I consider both ways legit, but the modding one more efficient.

As a individual you can argue your point, but countless hours, collaborations, and hundreds of players input has gone into setting the HOF rules. They are good!

MODs are cheating!
Rerolling is NOT cheating

This is clearly defined in the HOF rules which are mainly there to put everyone on EQUAL footing,...

Everyone needs to be playing the same version (Even, if your not a HOF or Gauntlet participant), because it is the basis for conversations on CivFanatics....

A player can't say,..."I have no problem defeating Mongolia, and his pitiful Keshiks on deity" if your MOD gives you 10,000 gold to start

Is that a extreme,...YES! But MODs are too random to control across the board, so we all need to agree, and compete on a level playing field (Which is the most recent version of the base game).

Restarting is not cheating because everyone has the same ability to reroll as many times as they want,...(Equal Footing)

What about this earlier post doesn't make sense to you! The absolute best players in this community see it this way, I don't understand why you are having so much trouble accepting it....??


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[TheMeInTeam]

So you are saying it's actually possible to go for a non-domination victory without emphasis on Science? (Since Wide = low population = low Science) How is it even possible to play wide on Deity anyway given the pace at which AI gobbles up land?

You can win any VC on deity without emphasis on science. You won't get a record finish date, but you will win.

A key point to keep in mind is that dead or badly crippled AIs can't win. It's not hard to be 1st to launch a ship when the remaining civs have a single pillaged city.

There is also a solid guide on piety opener in deity leading to diplomatic victory while both small and (for most of the game) backwards.

All that aside, for the OP point I agree. Starts are still too variant in strength. Note that Civ V is actually better than Civ IV in this regard; there is no Civ V equivalent to being plains cow'd without a river or getting problematic spawnbust terrain with a seafood start + barbs on, and the nature of the bonuses in both mean that unwinnable or pure luck-based deity games are more rare in Civ V than Civ IV (remember of course that the latter could just stack 30 units in one tile when it was cost prohibitive to defend with even 10).

Even so, the advantages conferred by a great start versus a terrible one can be tremendous, easily enough to be the sole deciding factor between players unless the skill gap is wide. Generally, luck factors in strategy games should carry some risk-adjusted agency so players make a choice on how to invest resources. That way, the player's choices are what is decisive. When the game starts deciding outcomes completely independently (or mostly independently) of player choices, its RNGeesus has too much power.

What about this earlier post doesn't make sense to you! The absolute best players in this community see it this way, I don't understand why your haven't so much trouble accepting it....??

Dating back to years ago, HoF most certainly has *not* consistently made rules and evaluations with comparability/consistency between players in mind. The breaking point there being that it is advantageous to make many attempts simply to get RNG in your favor, and then play from there. That is a prohibitive time sink and a barrier to competition. The HoF ruleset, unless it has changed dramatically over the past few years, does not make a serious effort at removing that barrier.

The "mods" issue isn't set in stone either; HoF has not only allowed, but REQUIRED mods, and banning mods that do nothing but alter the UI would be in bad taste.

 

[Delnar_Ersike]

All that aside, for the OP point I agree. Starts are still too variant in strength. Note that Civ V is actually better than Civ IV in this regard; there is no Civ V equivalent to being plains cow'd without a river or getting problematic spawnbust terrain with a seafood start + barbs on, and the nature of the bonuses in both mean that unwinnable or pure luck-based deity games are more rare in Civ V than Civ IV (remember of course that the latter could just stack 30 units in one tile when it was cost prohibitive to defend with even 10).

On the other hand, starts in Civ5 matter a lot more than in Civ4 because so much of the game revolves around your capitol and there is no way to move it like in Civ4. Domination Victory, how city connection gold is calculated, most important earlygame policies (Collective Rule, Tradition Opener, Landed Elite, Monarchy), some mid- and late-game policies/tenets (Commerce Opener, Third Alternative), the God-King belief, how railroads give production boosts, and how the Palace gives a direct science and hammer boost... there are so many important gameplay factors in Civ5 that rely on the very first city that you found that your starting spot can win or lose you the game by default even on the largest and most varied of maps. There's a reason people tend to concede in Civ5 MP the instant their capitol is taken, even if it's with just a small expeditionary force of frigates or XCOM + Stealth Bombers.

The main start equalizer in Civ5 is that there are 36 tiles in your capitol's radius in Civ5, while there are only 20 tiles in your capitol's radius in Civ4, and it's much harder for all 36 tiles to add up to something terrible than for all 20 tiles to do so. If Civ4's cities had a radius of 3 instead of 2 and allowed the spread of culture to reach radius 3 tiles just as fast as in Civ5, you'd probably have a case where Civ4's starts are flatout less important than Civ5's.

 

[chuckh89]

Dating back to years ago, HoF most certainly has *not* consistently made rules and evaluations with comparability/consistency between players in mind. The breaking point there being that it is advantageous to make many attempts simply to get RNG in your favor, and then play from there. That is a prohibitive time sink and a barrier to competition. The HoF ruleset, unless it has changed dramatically over the past few years, does not make a serious effort at removing that barrier.

The "mods" issue isn't set in stone either; HoF has not only allowed, but REQUIRED mods, and banning mods that do nothing but alter the UI would be in bad taste.

I am speaking of the current state of the HOF, and The CivFanatics community. I interact with these HOF, and Gauntlet players on a daily basis, and in my experience a vast majority agree with HOF rules, and MOST IMPORTANT they view it as their guideline when competing against other players.

I have been submitting games for HOF, and competing in Gauntlets, and at NO TIME was I ever required to have a MOD. (Not sure what your referring to,-DLCs and EUIs are completely different than MODs), And once again we are commenting on the current status of the HOF, and CivFanatics Community....It has come a long way since the release of Civ V and BNW.

I have probably read every HOF, and Gauntlet post over the last 2 years,....And, not at any time did I see a comment referring to ReRolls as a "prohibitive time sink, and barrier to competition" (Or anything similar). The GoM is set up to be a playing field where restarts are not allowed, and multiple attempts are prohibited,....If you are going to disallow rerolls,...Then you would likewise have to abolish multiple attempts (And that defeats the whole purpose of Gauntlets). You can control MODs, but could never monitor constant rerollers if was deemed as inappropriate behavior for competition.

The Civfanatic Community needs a baseline, and the HOF rules, are the guideline the best of the best use for competition. A tee is used in Tee ball, and Aluminum/CF bats are used in the LLWS, but if you ask the average baseball fan they would tell you that a wooden bat is "The rule". I didn't realize the people posting on this site were a bunch on Tee ball players, and didn't want to play with the Big Boys.

-MODing is for fun, improving your game, and playing with selected players that all agree to the modification to the base game. (And not to be used as a reference basis for community wide conversation, or competition)

-Restarting/Rerolling is NOT cheating because every player is on equal footing, and has the ability to ReRoll as many times as they like, and it is legal in the HOF Rules.



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[shaglio]

As far as modding the game is concerned, I wouldn't do it for MP unless everyone has the same mod. I wouldn't do it for a HoF, GotM, DCL, or any other game I meant to "submit" unless it was allowed in that challenge's rules.

But for a regular SP game on your own, go right ahead as long as you don't come to the forums and try to argue a point based on your modified game. For example, you'll never see me on here arguing that Survivalism (which I always take) is better for Scouts than Surveillance, because I've modded the game so that the Max_Barbarian_XP is 9999 instead of the default 30 and I've made it so that Scouts upgrade to Musketmen in my game. It wouldn't make sense for me to argue those 2 promotions when I've modded my own game and (most) everyone else plays by the default rules.

 

[sixty4half]

I read that article and I think most of those developers have a mental disability. Losing a turn or 2 is nothing compared to having horrible land in your cap for the entire game or getting your city up against a mountain for an observatory.

I think they were looking at it differently than how higher level players look at it. Most of us are not opposed to doing some exploring and then reloading the AutoSaveInit file to move to the best location we scouted.

The developers are probably looking at this issue without the option of reload. In many cases it could be a good argument that you waste too much time exploring before you find that sweet spot. Besides, we all know that over that hill two tiles away is some good riverside grassland... or it's desert, and we just wasted two turns, which is HUGE in the early game.

If I want to set up an early religion (for example) then I could be delayed with compound interest (it's the most powerful force known to man) due to the increase in cost of developing a Pantheon. If I waste 2 turns moving somewhere, discover it's bad, then move back (probably 3 turns if initial start was really bad) then I'm delaying the build of my shrine. Now I'm behind so I have to wait for the third pantheon which cost 20 instead of 10 which further delays me.

The same example could be used for Rep, getting an early expansion, building an early army ect ect. So, when you remove the explore-restart option, it does become a bit more muddy on whether you should move or settle turn 1.

 

[chuckh89]

I think they were looking at it differently than how higher level players look at it. Most of us are not opposed to doing some exploring and then reloading the AutoSaveInit file to move to the best location we scouted.

The developers are probably looking at this issue without the option of reload.

That's cheating, but if it is "Just you" and your not going to pass off your result as genuine then..."No Biggie"

I don't think that is what "Most of us" do...



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[sixty4half]

That's cheating, but if it is "Just you" and your not going to pass off your result as genuine then..."No Biggie"

I don't think that is what "Most of us" do...

-

wow, I'm confused then. Didn't you just have a little spat with the other guy in this thread over the fact that restarting isn't cheating. Or, you are being sarcastic.

 

[chuckh89]

wow, I'm confused then. Didn't you just have a little spat with the other guy in this thread over the fact that restarting isn't cheating. Or, you are being sarcastic.

This is straight from the HOF rules:

Reloading/Replaying

Reloading for the purpose of replaying any part of the game is not allowed. This includes moves, battles, city screen changes, etc. It is not a HOF effort if you can undo your mistakes. A reload/replay is when a new session is started using a save prior to that of the end of the previous session.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Rerolling/Restarting a New Game (Is completely different, and allowed -Not Cheating)
A new Game is allowed because you have no prior knowledge, and No ability to gain a advantage. (and once again, everyone is on Equal Footing)
>Realistically it is no different than playing a game to completion, then making another attempt to try to better you score.

Just play one Gauntlet,....Just One! Follow the the HOF rules, and compare your best score to others......You will be amazed at what at what a terrible player you truly are when you have to actually follow a set of rules, and can't use any MODs.


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[poom3619]

Well, no need to call other player a cheater or bad player just because he doesn't enjoy the game the same way you do.

BTW, I start to wonder if I should be here to discuss about the wild difference of great start and bad start, or how great you're because you don't "cheat" or how a type of reroll is morally superior to another.

 

[sixty4half]

Reloading/Replaying

Reloading for the purpose of replaying any part of the game is not allowed. This includes moves, battles, city screen changes, etc. It is not a HOF effort if you can undo your mistakes. A reload/replay is when a new session is started using a save prior to that of the end of the previous session.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Rerolling/Restarting a New Game (Is completely different, and allowed -Not Cheating)
A new Game is allowed because you have no prior knowledge, and No ability to gain a advantage. (and once again, everyone is on Equal Footing)
>Realistically it is no different than playing a game to completion, then making another attempt to try to better you score.

I guess I just don't understand the difference between RESTARTING and loading the game. I think you just told me that I'm not allowed to load the game to redo a turn or a move, but I can reload the game to start over again. "making another attempt to try to better you [sic] score." Seems to imply you're just replaying the exact same map over. But you also state "no prior knowledge" so I'm confused on how you could restart a game you just played and NOT have prior knowledge.

I think we're just using different terms or I have a different understanding of what Restart means.

Reloading/Replaying
Just play one Gauntlet,....Just One! Follow the the HOF rules, and compare your best score to others......You will be amazed at what at what a terrible player you truly are when you have to actually follow a set of rules, and can't use any MODs.


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For you not knowing me outside of one or two posts I really feel like you went out of your way to insult me here. You don't really know how well I play so you're just making assumptions. I get what you're trying to say, Go out and play against some competition to see what you're made of. But with the "what a terrible player you truly are" it didn't come off that way.

I kind of agree with Poom right now.

 

[chuckh89]

Well, no need to call other player a cheater or bad player just because he doesn't enjoy the game the same way you do.

BTW, I start to wonder if I should be here to discuss about the wild difference of great start and bad start, or how great you're because you don't "cheat" or how a type of reroll is morally superior to another.

I was speaking to the masses not to Sixty4Half as a individual, and I never said I was a Elite player, and was merely referring to my own humbling experience when having to follow a set of rules among Elite players.

The reason why we are "Off Topic" is because it is relevant to the lead topic. I will once again use the earlier example..."If I am using a MOD that allows me to start with 10,000 gold,....then does it really matter if I move my settler, or settle immediately?? Or how important a great start, or Bad Start location?

Likewise, if there are no repercussions from not settling in the first few turns, and your able to restart from your original game save,...What relevance does this topic have in the first place??

If you use the "Ingame editor" MOD, you can remove the entire Fog of War on turn one (So you can see the best location immediately),...Why not just do that,...??? (Save yourself time, your just going to reload anyway!)

I guess I just don't understand the difference between RESTARTING and loading the game. I think you just told me that I'm not allowed to load the game to redo a turn or a move, but I can reload the game to start over again. "making another attempt to try to better you [sic] score." Seems to imply you're just replaying the exact same map over. But you also state "no prior knowledge" so I'm confused on how you could restart a game you just played and NOT have prior knowledge.

I think we're just using different terms or I have a different understanding of what Restart means.

Reloading/Replaying
Includes having prior knowledge

Restarting/ReRolling
Is a completely different game (New map, Civs in different locations, Settler starting location, etc.)=No Prior Knowledge



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[Acken]

Most starts don't have a river/mountain; the benefits of which decide the fate of the game. Slower growth without observatory = lose; you simply can't win Deity games without prioritizing Science; no matter what Victory condition you're aiming for.

False, they help but don't determine the outcome. You're just fighting uphill rather than downhill.


Not sure what the whole cheating debate in the thread is about:
-Save scumming will always be save scumming.
-Playing with a rule altering mod is playing another game.
-Restarting because of a poor start is to flee difficulty. Either to get a easy game or because that's the competition (HoF).

 

[Nick31]

Leave it to Acken to concisely sum up a thread.

I too, am surprised at the course of dialogue, but to reiterate to the OP: Learning how to move a Settler and warrior in 0-3 turns is an acquired feel and can be improved, just as learning how to make due with a subpar capital (or good capital and really poor expansion lands) can be a good experience as well.

Lastly, a lot of threads at the moment are asking/proclaiming what is or isn't necessary to win on Deity. How about just playing on Immortal sometimes?

There isn't a scenario I've encountered on Immortal since I've developed into the player I am today, that I cannot win with, and usually win with some style (i.e. pick my victory condition). Doesn't mean it's at Acken's level, but good.

I feel a lot of these threads focusing on Diety elements should first master those elements on Immortal, and then maybe come back to Diety and see if they're better now. Just my opinion, of course.

 

[sixty4half]

Okay, well I guess I have a different understanding of the prefix "re" then because a restart would be defined as starting the same thing over again.

This is where my confusion is. I've been lurking for months reading the word "restart" and thinking you guys were actually restarting when what you meant was that you started a new game. My mind is literally blown that you guy are so good that you NEVER reload.

I do reload quite often. But I don't play with spreadsheets or foot notes. Sometimes I'll set up a worker to pre-chop for two turns. Then on the third turn realize I just accelerated my Library instead of Petra. Totally not what I meant to do and if I actually CARED enough to use footnotes/spreadsheets then I would have caught it on turn 2.

Yeah, it's a crutch. But I only do it when I had the moves planned out, simply forgot to execute them. If I screw up and lose something because it went unnoticed, then I just roll with the consequences.

 

[Acken]

Some good players reload. Sometimes I do, to test out stuff or different ideas. It's actually the best way to make your gameplay/knowledge progress as it fixes quite a number of variable to just reload and see how a different decision afects the outcome. For example when trying to break science victory below 200 turns with liberty on the korea map I posted in S&T subforum I reloaded a lot.

It's however clearly forbidden for GoTM and HoF competitions.

 

[sixty4half]

It's however clearly forbidden for GoTM and HoF competitions.

That's fine and completely understandable though. I feel I'm still a ways away from taking a shot at a HoF game. I might check out a GotM though just to see how I do.

 

[Acken]

There are 2 currently, a china science on King and a sweden culture on Immortal.

 

[chuckh89]

That's fine and completely understandable though. I feel I'm still a ways away from taking a shot at a HoF game. I might check out a GotM though just to see how I do.

The best advice I could give to you...

Play Gauntlets, read the posts on the thread dedicated to one you choose, and don't be afraid to ask questions.

There are many elite players that post, but they are more than willing to help anyone that is interested in improving their game.

You can also download past HOF games from the HOF tables, and view how their victories progressed from beginning to end,....It is a great tool to improve your game!

Before Gauntlets, I never knew very basic things!
How to use the Tourism screen properly,...
What a Greek Liberation Strategy was....
How players get 4 cities out before turn 50...
How they knock off domination victories so quickly...
How to win a Diplomatic Victory on the first vote...

Don't wait til you get good,....Get good by learning from experienced guys in friendly competitive environment that is also tons of fun!

Acken's "Let's Play"s and "Freedom Science Guide" are also mandatory IMHO, they are that good!


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