Start is too important.

[twilson1972]

Funnily enough ive been playing pangea maps lately since although i love naval games the AI just cannot use its navy

I had a reasonable start (aside from im not used to so many barbarians)- but the germans (opposite side of map) had a hillside, riverside, 4 salt, desert start and clusters of salt for 2nd and 3rd cities. They were totally out of control and noone would take bribes to fight them.

I am torn on the start..you should have variety of course, but when one player gets a start like that, and the next gets snow and tundra it imbalances things and i dont think map script does well....the great resources like salt should not cluster like that.

 

[Kyro]

You can win any VC on deity without emphasis on science. You won't get a record finish date, but you will win.

A key point to keep in mind is that dead or badly crippled AIs can't win. It's not hard to be 1st to launch a ship when the remaining civs have a single pillaged city.

There is also a solid guide on piety opener in deity leading to diplomatic victory while both small and (for most of the game) backwards.

Right which is exactly why I mentioned "non-domination". I am talking about peaceful victories here. Going by the logic about "avoiding difficulty" in this thread, killing the AI before they get to snowball is essentially avoiding the "challenge" Deity AI can present with their cheats. Not bragging here but AI really sucks at war, it's ridiculous when you see them get permanently crippled by a single Hoplite at the start of the game.

So correct me if I'm wrong but somehow the community has taken an Elitist stand on the topic of RNG and that restarting to escape bad RNG is actually being a wuss. Out of a sudden, wanting a fair start has become "avoiding difficulty".

It's ridiculous really, it's like hey bad starts are bad so suck it up and don't even think about restarting or you're a noob. Instead of acknowledging a genuine game balancing problem, people actually can contort it into a game-worthy "challenge".

 

[Acken]

Yes, GoTM -Definitely!

But,...Everyone Rerolls for Gauntlets and HoF, sometimes it's Mandatory if you want to Medal (The Egypt Cultural Victory a few months back required a Cultural Laggard), so if all your Ai Civs hit culture ruins, or built culture buildings the game was basically over...Everyone was rerolling!

There is nothing in the HoF rules that states that it is illegal ("Forbidden"), or even frowned upon..


_

Reload is save scumming, not rerolling a map usually reffered as restarting.

So correct me if I'm wrong but somehow the community has taken an Elitist stand on the topic of RNG and that restarting to escape bad RNG is actually being a wuss. Out of a sudden, wanting a fair start has become "avoiding difficulty".

It's ridiculous really, it's like hey bad starts are bad so suck it up and don't even think about restarting or you're a noob. Instead of acknowledging a genuine game balancing problem, people actually can contort it into a game-worthy "challenge".

Restarting to get a easier start is............... looking for a easier start. It IS avoiding difficult starts.
Nothing ridiculous in that statement. I won't call you a wuss for it (and I haven't seen people do so) because your reasons to do so are your own. I have my own when I do it but I don't try to come up with justifications: I am avoiding difficult starts when I do... because I'm not in the mood, because I find them boring or because I want a HoF medal. No one cares.

 

[twilson1972]

Reload is save scumming, not rerolling a map usually reffered as restarting.



Restarting to get a easier start is............... looking for a easier start. It IS avoiding difficult starts.
Nothing ridiculous in that statement. I won't call you a wuss for it (and I haven't seen people do so) because your reasons to do so are your own. I have my own when I do it but I don't try to come up with justifications: I am avoiding difficult starts when I do... because I'm not in the mood, because I find them boring or because I want a HoF medal. No one cares.

Have to be honest here, i have been watching a lot of lets play movies lately..since i have won on immortal, but lost my diety game when i moved up.

I have watched four complete games now, and they all seemed to revolve around a few key things

1) Exploiting worker steals.
2) Exploiting the ai being stupid in buying luxuries/resources it doesnt need (combined with its massive cash you can rush buy lots)
3) Exploiting the AI willingness to be redirected in its wars for a small bribe

and finally, the poor AI ability to use its units..

 

[Kyro]

Restarting to get a easier start is............... looking for a easier start. It IS avoiding difficult starts.
Nothing ridiculous in that statement. I won't call you a wuss for it (and I haven't seen people do so) because your reasons to do so are your own. I have my own when I do it but I don't try to come up with justifications: I am avoiding difficult starts when I do... because I'm not in the mood, because I find them boring or because I want a HoF medal. No one cares.

There is a huge difference between "refusing to play what is to your disadvantage" and "fleeing from a challenge". Fundamentally they are driven by two different reasons even though they arrive at a similar outcome. I know you are not trying to convey a negative message but your phrasing implies otherwise. Unintentionally you have placed restarting in a negative light and that matters because you are a good player with influence on how people view games.

And before anyone misunderstands I am not trying to be antagonistic here I just detest elitist interpretations of game elements.

 

[Chicoutimi]

So you are saying it's actually possible to go for a non-domination victory without emphasis on Science? (Since Wide = low population = low Science) How is it even possible to play wide on Deity anyway given the pace at which AI gobbles up land?

lol yea if you'd absolutly need a mountain to win a game that'd be boring ^^
and 4+ cities is already wide to me. or go take a few cities from ai if you need more space.

 

[beetle]

It begs the question: If there is a good chance that this start will cost you the game 300 turns later, why not move your settler?

Because there is good chance that you will be just wasting turns. The starts are almost always good enough. I only move for something obvious. I will sometimes replay the map when it turn out the coast was just one more turn away.

It's better to run into Barbarians 3 turns into the game than spend time and effort, only to lose 300 turns later and realize the capital would have made the difference.

Okay, I hear you saying you rather quit than play an average start.

Oh and the "everyone has equal chances at the start" argument is invalid. Playing on even a standard-sized map, there is a very good possibility that starts are unequal and all it takes is for 1 player to have better start to throw off the pace of the game. You may have made up for your capital with a good 2nd city but hey the opponent has a good capital AND a good 2nd city.

Have you tried the Strategic Balance setting option? If so, what do you think of it?

How can you expect someone not to move/restart given these circumstances?

Because playing average starts is part of the game?

Legendary Start is deity ai's ticket to snowballing victory.

Okay, so you do not like Legendary Start setting option. It sounds to me like you want a setting where you the player get a Legendary Start but the AIs do not. Restarting until you have a clearly above average start is not really playing Deity. Sorry, but you might as well be using a mod!

The HOF very much permits restarts because you are competing with other humans. Really, it is asynchronous MP. For that kind of competition, pretty much anything the game permits is fair.

But you are talking about competing against the AI in straight-up SP. The start algorithm works well enough.

Most starts don't have a river/mountain; the benefits of which decide the fate of the game. Slower growth without observatory = lose; you simply can't win Deity games without prioritizing Science; no matter what Victory condition you're aiming for.

Maybe not in MP, but for SP you don't need any of that. I am very much a mediocre Deity player, but unless I have something very specific in mind (like maybe the game will be much less fun without horses for the UU), being able to (sometimes) win with average starts is how I know that I am Deity player.

If only there was something like that for BNW; I won't have to restart hundreds of times then.

If you find the game so frustrating, why not drop back down to Immortal? Or experiment with Strategic Balance. Or try a mod?

So you are saying it's actually possible to go for a non-domination victory without emphasis on Science? (Since Wide = low population = low Science) How is it even possible to play wide on Deity anyway given the pace at which AI gobbles up land?

A mountain start is not required for putting an emphasis on science. I emphasize mountains for expos, but sometimes the map just does not cooperate. Yes, mediocre players (such as myself) can play peaceful Liberty wide on Deity and win -- just not most maps!

 

[beetle]

Have to be honest here, i have been watching a lot of lets play movies lately..since i have won on immortal, but lost my diety game when i moved up.

Do you win every time on Immortal? Every VC? How many different civs? Are you judging Deity on one game?

I have watched four complete games now, and they all seemed to revolve around a few key things...

I am struggling and mediocre, but I can assure you that you don't need to steal workers.

The AI never needs your luxes, and they only ever pay the minimum. Trades are vital for diplo and are as much about relations as the gold. They won't buy resources when they don't need them. Since they patched lump-sum trades to require DoF, this does not feel like the other three things in your list. Did you not do trades with Immortal AIs?

The AIs being willing to redirect wars for trivial gold is something I still do pretty often. I chalk it up to the AI generally being insane. Really, you would trek your army across the pangaea to fight me -- when we have been friends all game -- rather than war with your neighbor who you hate? But for 4gpt you will war with your in-game enemy rather than your in-game friend? This does feel closer to being an exploit, but the diplo is so horribly broken. If instead, the in-game friendly AI proactively asked the player for money to support a war effort, people would love it. The end result would be about the same, so I can't feel too bad about this one.

The poor immortal AI has no ability to use its units either, so surely you are okay with that!

 

[twilson1972]

Hey beetle, i have only played 3 immortal games to be fair, but i struggled on deity so thats why i watched the lets play movies

Just a few comments

1) Most of the lets plays ive watched utilize worker steals, maybe ill find some more that dont, i am still watching them

2) Yes i traded with the AI on every level ive played, but they have more money now...and do seem to buy uneeded luxuries

3) Diplomacy is a bit of a mess yes and the 'here is some furs go fight the other guy' feels an exploit

4) No higher levels dont improve utilization of units, it was numbers that i found a problem when moving up.

 

[Aheadatime]

To the OP, yes starts are incredibly important. Not just the immediate set of tiles that your settler starts on, but the surrounding ~50 tiles or so as well.

I can't tell you how many "fast science Deity" games I've seen on youtube where the player starts on or near a river, mountain, desert cap. Their warrior finds a ruin for 20 culture, a first-to-meet religious CS for Desert Folklore, and a few uncontested expands very conveniently placed in relationship to their cap. It's one thing to start off with a nice cap, but its a totally different thing to have such an incredibly fortunate chain of events occur during the first ~10-20 moves.

The best way to demonstrate how strong starts are is to simply observe some higher level MP play. I frequent a youtube channel by the name of "FilthyRobot". Even though he can be salty/childish at times, he's a very high level player who only plays MP with Steam's No Quitter Group. Watching his games and hearing him and his competitors discuss starts and strats is very telling.

It's almost always the case that people with too strong of a start (aztecs with fresh water everywhere, inca with a mountain/river/hilly cap, any civ with desert folklore-CS-meet and a petra cap, any civ with a multi-salt start) end up getting focused by the rest of the players. This is simply due to the fact that if they don't put their attention towards him, he will absolutely end up killing everybody else in the game thanks to his start.

There are definitely games where this doesn't happen, but it's usually because either the other players get a good start of their own, or the player doesn't properly execute the mid to late game with his strong start. Often the players will all-chat what they see when they spot out a ridiculous start, ie, "arabia with desert folklore and a 6-hill, 2-oasis river start lol". Sometimes they even help each other out directly instead of indirectly. They'll PM neighbors for gold if a run-away civ starts attacking them, and even gift each other units to help defend against the good-start guy. I just find it fascinating how much information you can gather from watching such high level players play the game together.

 

[beetle]

i have only played 3 immortal games to be fair

So why the hurry to get to Deity? Enjoy the wonders, hit every social policy at least once, enjoy UU even when they are weak, etc. There is a lot in the game, and so much you will miss by jumping right into the deep end.

Most of the lets plays ive watched utilize worker steals, maybe ill find some more that dont, i am still watching them

Please share when you do!

Yes i traded with the AI on every level ive played, but they have more money now...and do seem to buy uneeded luxuries

If the AI does not hate you, they always will trade luxes/resources. They will sell anything they have, and buy anything you offer. That is true on all difficulty levels. AI “need” does not factor into it. If they have 7 gpt, they will give you that for a lux at any difficulty level. I suppose the Deity civs, with the extra workers and gold, the AI has more to offer in trade, and earlier too. This one does not really feel like an exploit at all to me. It is a pretty foundational element of the game.

the 'here is some furs go fight the other guy' feels an exploit

I think maybe as you get your unit build queue optimized, you might be able to avoid that. I find the bribes to be less immersion breaking than the out-of-the-blue DoWs. I suspect that the AIs are programmed, by hook or by crook, to interact with the player. Someone hoping to peacefully turtle will have their solitude interrupted for no good reason -- other than the devs thinking they are doing you a favor.

No higher levels dont improve utilization of units, it was numbers that i found a problem when moving up.

Yes, the devs have hardly any other means to adjust play balance. Previous civs were exactly like that too, but I think this iteration is more blatant.

 

[poom3619]

If you ask me this opinion of several individuals is not equals to opinion of "community" and I wonder if anyone will gain anything from this fight. Besides, people who tell that you are noob because you do or not do Action-X in forum stay in forum. People who tell that in Multiplayer game may stay a bit longer. I would enjoy playing at King as long as I want, any way i want.

Why do you have to force yourself into vanilla Deity? or equate every scenario to playing in Deity where it buff the AI to ridiculous level for elite player.

I am playing at King just fine and enjoy it a lot. While start place is important. My game wouldn't harmed that much when I move Settler around as long as I don't start on barren islands in middle of ocean (or start in island that can support 3 cities namely Me, Attila's Court and a city state) or in middle of 50-tiles area sheet of Ice.

It's not like anything I do in 50-100 turns from start will not ruin oh-so-marvelous start. I might not being able to win at anywhere higher than Emperor as I prefer building Great Library instead of building 4 cities as some say.

 

[Acken]

Have to be honest here, i have been watching a lot of lets play movies lately..since i have won on immortal, but lost my diety game when i moved up.

I have watched four complete games now, and they all seemed to revolve around a few key things

1) Exploiting worker steals.
2) Exploiting the ai being stupid in buying luxuries/resources it doesnt need (combined with its massive cash you can rush buy lots)
3) Exploiting the AI willingness to be redirected in its wars for a small bribe

and finally, the poor AI ability to use its units..

Well one is free to use those or not. They certainly help. Exploiting AI weaknesses when moving up has always been a civ feature. All 3 points are available on all difficulty levels too and I'd believe getting 7gpt out of an AI will cripple it more on Prince than on Deity.

There is a huge difference between "refusing to play what is to your disadvantage" and "fleeing from a challenge". Fundamentally they are driven by two different reasons even though they arrive at a similar outcome. I know you are not trying to convey a negative message but your phrasing implies otherwise. Unintentionally you have placed restarting in a negative light and that matters because you are a good player with influence on how people view games.

And before anyone misunderstands I am not trying to be antagonistic here I just detest elitist interpretations of game elements.

I do restart myself for one reason or another. But the underlying reason is always the same: I do not want the added difficulty.

I just like calling a cat a cat. There's no negative conotation behind it nor elitist. It's just a fact that the starts are not balanced and some are harder than others. It's like a difficulty setting additional to the game settings. If someone avoids a difficult start he's avoiding the extra difficulty due to the start. It's not a moral judgement. When someone is skipping difficult deity challenge maps they don't get shunned by the others However they'll represent an additional challenge for those bored with a normal map.

And then you also have an imbalance for the victory you're achieving anyway. Diplomacy is the easiest and science isn't far by.

 

[Lambatatte]

I often find myself re-rolling another map when I get to good a start. Specially if I play an immortal game, witch tend to be a walk in the park...

 

[chuckh89]

I often find myself re-rolling another map when I get to good a start. Specially if I play an immortal game, witch tend to be a walk in the park...

So you find Immortal too easy, so you make it more difficult,...That's fine,...BUT

Why don't you just see how fast you can achieve a victory,...Many people have excelled to the highest levels of Diety/Immortal and can achieve victories,....But, How fast can you do it? Seems more appropriate than looking for a bad start to make the game more difficult!