Submarine/Invisibility Question

[agonistes]

In my most recent game, my submarines are flagged as both INVIS and HIDDEN NAT.

I, Catherine of Russia, was cruising a few subs past my locked ally Scandinavia (Marla map, accurate placement) en route to Cuba, and some viking frigates bombarded me.

To be sure I didn't miss a frigate colliding with my sub, thus spotting it, I sent another over, and sure enough, it too was bombarded.

How is Scandinavia seeing my invis subs? Does flagging Hidden Nationality somehow unflag Invisible To Other Units?

A follow up question... I assume that cruise missiles launched from a Hidden Nationality vehicle would not be flagged as Hidden Nationality just because the vehicle was - even though the opposite would seem to make sense. Is this correct? I haven't discovered Rocketry in the game yet, and am curious.

If I am wrong, then HN tactical nukes are going to make things interesting.

Does the AI often make use of naval tactical missile carriers?

 

[Theov]

In my most recent game, my submarines are flagged as both INVIS and HIDDEN NAT.

I, Catherine of Russia, was cruising a few subs past my locked ally Scandinavia (Marla map, accurate placement) en route to Cuba, and some viking frigates bombarded me.

To be sure I didn't miss a frigate colliding with my sub, thus spotting it, I sent another over, and sure enough, it too was bombarded.

How is Scandinavia seeing my invis subs? Does flagging Hidden Nationality somehow unflag Invisible To Other Units?

A follow up question... I assume that cruise missiles launched from a Hidden Nationality vehicle would not be flagged as Hidden Nationality just because the vehicle was - even though the opposite would seem to make sense. Is this correct? I haven't discovered Rocketry in the game yet, and am curious.

If I am wrong, then HN tactical nukes are going to make things interesting.

Does the AI often make use of naval tactical missile carriers?

Never seen it come from a carrier or something.
Heard the alarm go of before the nuke cloud arrived.

 

[MarkK]

Please follow up with what you discover about the various missiles and ships flaggings. I've never played with the Editor like that before.

What I do know for fact is 1 thing (in an unedited game):

1) The AI can detect a Privateer anywhere on the map, from anywhere, anytime, and will send what they have to destroy it. They have global vision for the HN flag, and are on a (suicidal mission, as I play it) to kill this Privateer.

How this plays out in your edited game, whether good or bad, I'd love to hear more.

My own opinion, if it carries any weight; Nuke Subs & Tact Nukes, in Civ3, are worthless.

A Nuke Sub + a Tact Nuke cost 440 shields. An ICMB cost 500 shields, and is generally, at that stage of the game, only 4 to 8 turns away from starting in your best city. A Nuke Sub can only travel 6 at best, and still must be protected, and the Nuke only has a range of 6; an ICBM is global.

Compare that to a protected Carrier with 4 Bombers aboard, total cost 580, but have the same capabilty to exact the same amount of damage, over time wherever you need it, over and over.

Can you give a Nuke Sub the capability to carry at least 4 Tact Nukes, and trully "sleep"? That would make this game infinititely awesome.

Take care, Mark

 

[MarkK]

Did they attack you right after the InterTurn? or during yours... that may give a clue. I'm clueless.

 

[agonistes]

What I do know for fact is 1 thing (in an unedited game):

1) The AI can detect a Privateer anywhere on the map, from anywhere, anytime, and will send what they have to destroy it. They have global vision for the HN flag, and are on a (suicidal mission, as I play it) to kill this Privateer.

How this plays out in your edited game, whether good or bad, I'd love to hear more.

My own opinion, if it carries any weight; Nuke Subs & Tact Nukes, in Civ3, are worthless.

A Nuke Sub + a Tact Nuke cost 440 shields. An ICMB cost 500 shields, and is generally, at that stage of the game, only 4 to 8 turns away from starting in your best city. A Nuke Sub can only travel 6 at best, and still must be protected, and the Nuke only has a range of 6; an ICBM is global.

Compare that to a protected Carrier with 4 Bombers aboard, total cost 580, but have the same capabilty to exact the same amount of damage, over time wherever you need it, over and over.

I fear your first point is the reason the subs are detectable. HN must be a beacon to the AI. Its a shame, because I'm playing with locked alliances and its very annoying to have your ally declare on you because they ran into your sub.

I agree, subs are pretty much valueless, but I love the idea of sneaking around with an arsenal on board (I love The Hunt for Red October), and I've been tinkering, trying to make them as useful as possible and allow for Red Octoberesque scenarios to evolve.

My attack subs can carry 4 missiles, my nukes can carry 10. They are faster, and have radar. Subs appear with destroyers on the tech tree. I thought about removing DI from destroyers, but it makes the subs way too powerful. The solution would be to include another more advanced destroyer that has DI. I already used cruisers for my missile cruisers.

I looked at the available units for subs and destroyers in the units forum and didn't really care for any.

I think I just have to remove HN from the subs.

I suppose if one wanted to have a true sub campaign, one would have to have the right map (I use Marla's), remove ICBMS, and up the range on tactical nukes just a bit, in addition to the changes I've already made.

You could then have tactical nuke upgrades, with the range going up to 250 or so on the final upgrade.

 

[wuhjah]

I agree, subs are pretty much valueless...

Totally disagree. Subs (having stealth attack) are the perfect tool for taking out a transport under a stack of ships.

Hidden nationality is probably the key to your problem. I don't have that flag enabled and never have problems. Well, occasionally the sub-bug happens.

 

[agonistes]

In a normal game, which is to say, in a game in which I had one or more victory conditions turned on, if I saw a stack of enemy ships, the transport would probably be the last I was going for, unless I feared it carried a settler and there was a specific spot that I was desperate to protect from being settled.

The reason is that ships with guns can do damage that costs more to repair, while the transports' units can most likely be swiftly dealt with before any damage at all is done.

My navy is there to protect my navy, and bombard. My army and air force protect from invasion.

But... I wouldn't use a sub on an attack boat either, I would bombard or bomb first. Therefore, normally, subs have very little utility for my play style. Which is a fact I would like to change.

 

[Theov]

Why don't you hide the nationality for all ships, making naval warfare a big free for all.

 

[MarkK]

Oh, now that explain your motives, "The Hunt for Red October" (I love that movie too, and read the book once) it makes more sense. But keep in mind, the Russian Captain wasn't a rogue terrorist bent on firing anonymous nuclear weapons; he was simply determined to defect a new technology from a government he didn't trust, to one he did.

I can't imagine how you'd create in the editor a cultural flip for a fully loaded Nuke Sub, Haha.

But I really like your ideas of making Civ3 Subs more in line with true modern "Boomers".

 

[MarkK]

Excellent point by wuhjah, I'd never even considered that. I may produce a few Nuke Subs to protect my "kill zone harbors". But other than that, Nuke Subs are still weak, even with Magellan's Voyage, because a Nuke Sub can only "follow" a transport. I still consider them a waste.

Thanks agonistes, this is a cool topic for me; I'm going to tinker with Subs myself.

As for Theov, let's play an online 1-on-1 where ALL units are hidden nationalty!

 

[Lanzelot]

The reason is that ships with guns can do damage that costs more to repair, while the transports' units can most likely be swiftly dealt with before any damage at all is done.

Don't say that... The transport may carry one or two spearmen! And then what do you do?

 

[Theov]

As for Theov, let's play an online 1-on-1 where ALL units are hidden nationalty!

you'll never know what hit you... oh... wait.

 

[MarkK]

Haha Theov.

As for a true "Boomer" Sub in Civ3, it would have to occur in the 2nd tier of Modern Times (between Nuclear Power and Stealth), and the Sub would be incredibly more expensive. It would carry 8 Tact Nukes, with a range of 12. That's nasty.