submarines should have the effect of privateers

[eli_co]

in my opinion submarines arent given the credit they deserve...
but i dont want to talk about the attack defense stats, subs are a unique tool, and i can think of one aspect that will give it the push it needs.
i think that if you attack with a sub a nation that you are in peace with , then there should be about 95% chance that they wouldnt know who it was, especially if you attacked a non modern ship, such as frigate, or ironclad.
it was done by the germans before the usa declared war on them, they sunk hundrends of trade ships and other ships that were headed to help the english.
what do you think?

 

[SirJethro]

I think for the most part, nations have been able to figure out who controlled the submaries, even though they were under water.

When the Germans were sinking all of those trade boats, people wheren't saying "Jeez, I really wish we knew who was sinking our ships."

From a historical accuracy perspective, I don't think subs should get hidden nationality....or if they do, the odds should be heavily slanted towards nationality being revealed as opposed to hidden.

 

[sealman]

I agree with SirJethro. That said, I sill gave me disel boats the hidden nationality trait and the Nukes did not get it. The Disel boats also have the ability to carry a foot unit. Since I have incorporated the Special Opps unit into my game (also with hidden nationality) it makes a pretty good one two punch for taking out those resources before war is declared.

I do not use my subs to attack other shipping but the AI does and every now and then, one of my boats slides beneath the waves.

 

[Lab Monkey]

Historically privateers were a pretty anonymous bunch of mercenaries, but subs are part of a nations military. I doubt there's too many privately owned hunter-killer subs out there for hire (at least outside of a James Bond movie).

 

[Civddict]

there are lots of units, more options, and millions combinations. sometime it is impossible to make everything work way it should be...

 

[alpha wolf 64]

i modded subs with hidden nationality too. WW1/2, the germans were the only ones with subs out. In a game war, many nations might have subs and be at war. i like taking those opportunities to sink some "friendly" ships. Its also one of the few ways you can actively protect your coasts from ai settlers from boats. i sink anything that gets near an unclaimed piece of land.

 

[Jaybe]

Anyone been playing 1.29 and experienced a submarine attack yet?? I have heard that not only are the identities hidden, but you don't even see the sub attack in the first place!

 

[sealman]

Originally posted by alpha wolf 64
i modded subs with hidden nationality too. WW1/2, the germans were the only ones with subs out. In a game war, many nations might have subs and be at war. i like taking those opportunities to sink some "friendly" ships. Its also one of the few ways you can actively protect your coasts from ai settlers from boats. i sink anything that gets near an unclaimed piece of land.

tisk tisk

Great idea

 

[Zouave]

Hidden nationality was not an issue early in World War One as German U-boats SURFACED, told the crew to evacuate, and then SHELLED the merchant ship. Only when merchantmen started carrying guns did they attack with expensive torpedos.

The problem with subs and privateers is that both of them were designed to attack merchant shipping on enemy trade routes - something impossible in Civ 3. Firaxis won't fix this.

 

[Tassadar]

Originally posted by alpha wolf 64
i modded subs with hidden nationality too. WW1/2, the germans were the only ones with subs out. In a game war, many nations might have subs and be at war. i like taking those opportunities to sink some "friendly" ships. Its also one of the few ways you can actively protect your coasts from ai settlers from boats. i sink anything that gets near an unclaimed piece of land.

I like that i will do it into my mod.

 

[Crow T Robot]

I am not *real* fond of hidden nationality on subs because historically it was never a big mystery who's they were etc.

BUT that is because of the tactics used. On the other hand, I find it bizarre that if you attack a caravel half a world away in ancient times, the warrior onboard *instantly* communicates the attack back home. How? Bronze Age Short Wave?

Any number of expeditions set off, especially in the age of discovery, never to return. Storms? Mutiny? Lost? Swamped? Sea Dragons? Fell off the edge of the earth? Maybe, but Enemy Fleet is a possibility as well.

Historically we know who struck whom from records, gloating and hear-say but at the time, a missing expedition *was* a big mystery for them.

To counter that, I already made the privateer a bit stronger and viable and am pondering with Hidden Nationality on the early sub.

I wouldnt hesistate if there were a way that a Tech could make a *unit* obsolete. For instance, radio (sonar, rader etc) making subs obsolete. Without that, even if you cant make more, that they can linger in a fleet for too long (esp if stockpiled).

Units made obsolete by a Tech would be a nice way to get longbowmen etc off the build list too.

 

[bobgote]

Originally posted by Crow T Robot


I wouldnt hesistate if there were a way that a Tech could make a *unit* obsolete. For instance, radio (sonar, rader etc) making subs obsolete. Without that, even if you cant make more, that they can linger in a fleet for too long (esp if stockpiled).

make a new kind of sub that you can upgrade to. give it better attack and stuff (although maybe not on radio, as you don't have to have subs by this time i think).

Anyway, if you stumble upon a sub, or one attacks you, you can't see it at all (without having a sub or AEGIS cruiser in the area), so you can't tell it's nationality that way. Hidden nationality mods mean that subs can sink each other (and other ships) as much as they want, it will make subs a must have unit for attack and defence. I'm trying it in my next game.

 

[Crow T Robot]

Originally posted by bobgote
make a new kind of sub that you can upgrade to. give it better attack and stuff (although maybe not on radio, as you don't have to have subs by this time i think).

Yes, that prevents new ones from being made but doesnt obsolete existing ones everyone's fleet. Radio was just an example and it is difficult to suggest what the game should do when a tech were to make a unit obsolete. Just disappear? Magically upgrade? I dunno.

My point was that certain techs made the ability of secret sinkings (without regard to the extent and when they were ever used) very limited. Intelligence, design characteristics, sound signatures, maneuvering tactics, where they sail from etc made for a rather brief period when subs COULD act that way, so I would like to also limit such capability.

Anyway, if you stumble upon a sub, or one attacks you, you can't see it at all (without having a sub or AEGIS cruiser in the area), so you can't tell it's nationality that way.

Without it's nationality hidden you can. Trying to sail into a tile with a sub there the Mil Advisor says "this will cause war with the XXXXX. Are you sure?"

 

[Demetrias]

i don't think it should be disel subs since they had to surface to much. Now the nuke and fuel cell subs we have now travel fro months with out surfacing and don't surface any where but friendly ports. I mean all you got to go by is a blip on the screen. the only reason we new they were russian in the days of the cold war was everyone else was telling us were their subs where so if it was not one of them it must have been the enemy.

 

[bobgote]

Originally posted by Crow T Robot
Without it's nationality hidden you can. Trying to sail into a tile with a sub there the Mil Advisor says "this will cause war with the XXXXX. Are you sure?"

But if you're at war with several people, you can't tell which one sunk you. I guess it doesn't really matter, but this is what i was thinking of. You can't see anything attacking you, just your battleship blasting away at something, then sinking .

 

[Mr Adeoye]

excuse me but what on earth is good about privateers that makes them cost as much as other ships with better stats

 

[Crow T Robot]

Originally posted by bobgote
But if you're at war with several people, you can't tell which one sunk you. I guess it doesn't really matter, but this is what i was thinking of. You can't see anything attacking you, just your battleship blasting away at something, then sinking .

Ah! I see what you are saying. Yes, but when at war, HN matters far less (to me) than being able to sink that galleon of settlers or whatever at peacetime without risking war.

 

[Crow T Robot]

Originally posted by Mr Adeoye
excuse me but what on earth is good about privateers that makes them cost as much as other ships with better stats

Their nationality is hidden so you can attack/sink stuff without causing war. You can either use them in groups or modify their stats to make them more effective.

 

[ssmith619]

I know privateers are cool and all (they had them in an old, old, old, game, Colonization, also by Sid Meyer and Microprose, I think), but what about other units? Guerrillas like in Vietnam! They could be North Vietnamese, they could be Vietcong, they could be Soviets, or they could just be angry villagers. They could even have a feature that would cloak anybody. And to figure out who they were, instead of being killed, they'd be captured, brought to the nearest city, and tortured until they got something out of them. Sometimes they'd get something, sometimes they wouldn't. Ooooh...I can see it now! They could have a torture chamber as a city improvement! Oh...this is exciting. Okay...back to reality.

 

[bobgote]

ssmith619:
you could give these units the invisible trait and have certain units (eg infantry units) that could see them. I can't give you anything on the information part tho.