Supreme court upholds Trump's travel ban

[Ajidica]

If you're going to continually ignore my question then I don't see much potential for this discussion. Like what is your point here? Do you think you're going to shock me? Do you think this stuff is news to me? We both know that I'm no stranger to Western guilt-trippping.

I suppose you aren't a stranger too it.
It wasn't too long ago you were claiming proud solidarity with your Palestinian brothers against Israeli apartheid.

So I'll ask again -- which culture do you prefer to Western culture?

I can't answer that question because I fundamentally disagree with the premise. I'm not the one with a fetish for an idealized "Western culture" that considers pointing out the horrors perpetrated by those claiming to be defending "Western culture" as some sort of assault on it. I enjoy living in a society that, in theory at least, places an emphasis on individual liberty guaranteed by the state. However, to assume that I have to bring with my all the attendant baggage with the historic "western culture" or to assume that other "cultures" can't include that over time is in my view ridiculous.

Do you realize that the whole basis by which you're criticizing these historical atrocities comes from Western ideas of morality?

Source needed.

Do you think Westerners are unique in having done bad things before?

Not sure where you got that impression from. I'm fully aware Timur the Lame had a fondness for building skull pyramids after razing cities to the ground.
That said, Timur the Lame didn't try and exterminate well over 30 million people on industrial lines. That particular horror remains firmly within "western culture"

BTW - I find it incredibly interesting that you neglect to bring up Marxism and Marxist regimes, easily the most murderous product of Western civilization.

Eh, wasn't sure if you were one of the Alt-Righters who consider Communism to be "western" or a product of Jews rootless cosmopolitan intellectuals.

You really need to stop strawmanning me. I never said that Minnesota was worse off. I think we will both agree that Minnesota's success is not due to the fact that there are Norwegians there that can't speak English, so I don't know what you are disputing. You think Minnesota would be worse off if Owen's great-grandfather knew how to speak English?

You said:

The fact that after three generations they still have not learned the native language. You think that's what we need in our country? Language homogeneity is self-evidently a strength.

There was no meaningful degree of language homogeneity among Minnesotan immigrants, speaking a motley collection of Irish, English, German, Finnish, French, Swedish, and Norwegian* (and lets not forget native Dakota and Ojibwe left to die in prison camps). Based on your statement, that language homogeneity is a strength, people speaking a lot of different languages is a weakness. What I'm arguing is that I fail to see how Minnesota would have been improved had everyone who came over spoke workable English. Minnesota had a strong farming and lumber/mining economy and has transitioned very well into a service based economy. The state has done well in all periods of US history and has developed a strong social liberal position (apart from a brief flirtation with anti-Semitism in the 30s). In the 70s and 80s we took in a large Hmong refugee population, have multiple refugee communities as a result of Lutheran refugee societies, and a large Somali refugee population that is integrating as well as the Hmong's did**. I'm failing to see at what point we would have been stronger had Minnesotans said "Nah, unless you speak English you can go right back the way you came!".

*As I understand it, before language standardization in Scandinavia rural Swedish and rural Norwegian could be basically unintelligible.
**Somali women are just about as good as Hmong women and Soccer Moms at not looking when they make a turn and nearly run me over.

 

[AdrienIer]

French city with 40% Muslim population is the most dangerous city in Europe. Is this a sign of times to come?

Marseille has always been a very high crime rate city. Ever heard of the french connection ? The problem is that the culture there is a culture of mafias and clans. In that way the muslim population there is now well integrated

 

[civver_764]

I took your post to mean that it didn't really matter if Europeans took the native North Americans' land because they'd been taking each others' land previously.

There's physical genocide and cultural genocide. Various church groups and members of early Canadian governments did their best to commit cultural genocide against the native population of Canada, by kidnapping their children, imprisoning them in church-run residential schools, and literally beating their language, customs, and religions out of them. There was also the "Sixties Scoop" in which native children were literally kidnapped from their homes, taken elsewhere and sold to American and European families who paid to "adopt" them. Some of these people never knew their true identities until relatively recently, and are trying to find and reunite with siblings, cousins, and any surviving parents.

I don't think "they did it first" is any excuse for this. And considering European history, it's a really hypocritical thing to trot out as an excuse anyway.

I disavow all of that.

I suppose you aren't a stranger too it.
It wasn't too long ago you were claiming proud solidarity with your Palestinian brothers against Israeli apartheid.

Trust me, I still have no love for Israel.

I can't answer that question because I fundamentally disagree with the premise. I'm not the one with a fetish for an idealized "Western culture" that considers pointing out the horrors perpetrated by those claiming to be defending "Western culture" as some sort of assault on it. I enjoy living in a society that, in theory at least, places an emphasis on individual liberty guaranteed by the state. However, to assume that I have to bring with my all the attendant baggage with the historic "western culture" or to assume that other "cultures" can't include that over time is in my view ridiculous.

Woah woah woah...who said anything about a fetish? I never denied the horrors of Western history. Every group of people has done some horrible things in the past, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be proud of their culture and their people. Western civilization and culture have brought so many wonderful things to the world, what's wrong with acknowledging that?

Source needed.

The whole idea that there are "human rights" is purely a western invention.

Not sure where you got that impression from. I'm fully aware Timur the Lame had a fondness for building skull pyramids after razing cities to the ground.
That said, Timur the Lame didn't try and exterminate well over 30 million people on industrial lines. That particular horror remains firmly within "western culture"

I mean, that's largely due to technological constraints.

There was no meaningful degree of language homogeneity among Minnesotan immigrants, speaking a motley collection of Irish, English, German, Finnish, French, Swedish, and Norwegian* (and lets not forget native Dakota and Ojibwe left to die in prison camps). Based on your statement, that language homogeneity is a strength, people speaking a lot of different languages is a weakness. What I'm arguing is that I fail to see how Minnesota would have been improved had everyone who came over spoke workable English.

Are you serious? I feel like you're being incredibly disingenuous here... Of course language barriers are going to make things harder. Anyone who has ever dealt with one can tell you that. I'm not saying that a society can't succeed in spite of a language barrier, just that it would be in spite of and not because of it.

Minnesota had a strong farming and lumber/mining economy and has transitioned very well into a service based economy. The state has done well in all periods of US history and has developed a strong social liberal position (apart from a brief flirtation with anti-Semitism in the 30s). In the 70s and 80s we took in a large Hmong refugee population, have multiple refugee communities as a result of Lutheran refugee societies, and a large Somali refugee population that is integrating as well as the Hmong's did**. I'm failing to see at what point we would have been stronger had Minnesotans said "Nah, unless you speak English you can go right back the way you came!".

*As I understand it, before language standardization in Scandinavia rural Swedish and rural Norwegian could be basically unintelligible.
**Somali women are just about as good as Hmong women and Soccer Moms at not looking when they make a turn and nearly run me over.

You're strawmanning me here. I was talking about a third generation immigrant not being able to speak English. That's a lot different than someone who just arrived, wouldn't you agree? That suggests that there was a whole non-assimilated community for the guy to grow up in, such that he never learned English. We want immigrants that assimilate, don't we? If by the third generation you still don't speak English then you have clearly failed to assimilate.

Interesting that your brought Minnesota Somalis up. I did some research on them. Turns out some of them were caught trying to join ISIS. 21% of them are unemployed. 62% of them live in poverty. Minneapolis is one of the most of segregated cities in the nation. I couldn't find any crime rate statistics, but something tells me they're probably higher than the average population too. Gotta say, that doesn't paint a pretty picture. They seem to be a total drain on your state, man.

 

[Zkribbler]

I am agog that the Court would fashion its own remedy, something no one was asking for, and base it upon a nebulous test of " bona fide relationship with a person or entity," whatever that means. Ten of thousands of boarder guards will not have to each figure out what this means. I predict chaos.

Zippity do dah. The Administration has now interpreted "bona fide relationship" to be only a "close family relationship," e.g. fiances, nephews, nieces are excluded.

Hawaii is suing.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

You're strawmanning me here. I was talking about a third generation immigrant not being able to speak English. That's a lot different than someone who just arrived, wouldn't you agree? That suggests that there was a whole non-assimilated community for the guy to grow up in, such that he never learned English. We want immigrants that assimilate, don't we? If by the third generation you still don't speak English then you have clearly failed to assimilate.

So once again you are promoting the stupendously idiotic immigration test; "what language will your descendants be speaking in three generations?" Thanks for getting back to that, since I thought it was hilarious the first time.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I took your post to mean that it didn't really matter if Europeans took the native North Americans' land because they'd been taking each others' land previously.

There's physical genocide and cultural genocide. Various church groups and members of early Canadian governments did their best to commit cultural genocide against the native population of Canada, by kidnapping their children, imprisoning them in church-run residential schools, and literally beating their language, customs, and religions out of them. There was also the "Sixties Scoop" in which native children were literally kidnapped from their homes, taken elsewhere and sold to American and European families who paid to "adopt" them. Some of these people never knew their true identities until relatively recently, and are trying to find and reunite with siblings, cousins, and any surviving parents.

I don't think "they did it first" is any excuse for this. And considering European history, it's a really hypocritical thing to trot out as an excuse anyway.
I disavow all of that.

I disavow all of that.

Did I say you were responsible for what the churches (both Protestant and Catholic) did in Canada, or for what our government condoned?

No.

What I'm saying is that your claim that "it's okay if we screw people over because they did it to each other first" is not a valid excuse for what happened.

 

[civver_764]

I'm not trying to excuse what happened.

 

[Hrothbern]

The whole idea that there are "human rights" is purely a western invention.

do you consider "freedom of religion" as a human right ?

 

[Yeekim]

I will simplify it even more: 1. Muslims are more likely to be terrorists than other people. 2. Therefore, being Muslim makes one more likely to be a terrorist.

This is how you operate. However, this is not how formal logic works. It is a fallacy.

Um... I fail to see the error/fallacy there. The way I understand formal logic, if the first statement is true then the second statement must be true as well (at least the way you worded it).
Had you said "2. Therefore, converting to Islam makes one more likely to become a terrorist", then, yes, it would be a fallacy.

 

[Hrothbern]

1. There have been no airplane crashes with someone wearing a brown and a black shoe
2. Therefore, if I wear a brown and a black shoe in a plane, that plane will not crash

 

[Borachio]

I like this game. Can anyone play?

1. I have never flown in an aeroplane.
2. Therefore I will never be in a plane that crashes.

 

[El_Machinae]

Zippity do dah. The Administration has now interpreted "bona fide relationship" to be only a "close family relationship," e.g. fiances, nephews, nieces are excluded.

Hawaii is suing.

It's astounding that they'd intentionally draw the circle so small. If they'd moved it one tier out, people wouldn't be able to be obviously willing to say 'wait, what? grandparents aren't family?!?'

I mean, obviously the circle needs to be drawn; I'm related to Ebola. But still.

 

[metalhead]

They're going to get enjoined again, I can pretty much guarantee it. They are going about this so hamhandedly that it just boggles the mind. They just sort-of won in court on this issue and are just going right back to having another injunction issued on their unnecessarily narrow reading of SCOTUS' instructions.

I mean, I can't imagine anyone in the White House actually believes this is important for national security. Are they purposely making this a never-ending legal battle to keep their base fired up? I hesitate to give them that kind of credit. Most days they can't even walk and chew gum.

 

[Cutlass]

So once again you are promoting the stupendously idiotic immigration test; "what language will your descendants be speaking in three generations?" Thanks for getting back to that, since I thought it was hilarious the first time.

The greater irony, of course, being that language isolation is more imposed from the outside than chosen from the inside.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

If you, say, kill a childs parents, destroy his hometown and belittle his culture

Just an aside, but isn't that a bit like saying "comitted genocide, destroyed the universe, and burnt some toast"? I mean, if we assign a "badness factor" of 1 for the first two things, then the total badness in what you're saying is about 2.00000000017

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I'm not trying to excuse what happened.

How is "But they did it first!" not an excuse?

 

[civver_764]

do you consider "freedom of religion" as a human right ?

That has nothing to do with foreigners.

How is "But they did it first!" not an excuse?

You said two wrongs don't make a right. I agree with that, therefore we should protect our nations from being taken over.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

What about Christians who are very insistent on not taking the Lord's name in vain?

The question is, how insistent is "very insistent"?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The question is, how insistent is "very insistent"?

Insistent enough to impose the restrictions of their religion upon people who do not share their beliefs by force.

And yes, "I am a pious jerk who disdains the use of violence so I will demand a law so that gun toting thugs can be hired to impose my will" is still "by force."

 

[civver_764]

Another success story of German integration.

During the 2015/2016 New Year's Eve celebrations, there were mass sexual assaults, 24 alleged rapes, and numerous thefts in Germany, mainly in Cologne city center. There were similar incidents at the public celebrations in Hamburg, Dortmund, Düsseldorf, Stuttgart[26] and Bielefeld.[14][27][28] For all of Germany, police report that 1,200 women were sexually assaulted and estimate that at least 2,000 men were involved, acting in groups.[25]

All of the incidents involved women being surrounded and assaulted by groups of men on the street.[29][30] Police reported that the perpetrators were men of "Arab or North African appearance" and said that Germany had never experienced such mass sexual assaults before.[20][30][31][32][33] The German Federal Criminal Police Office said the incidents were a phenomenon known in some Arab countries as taharrush jamai (translated as "group sexual harassment").[34][35][36]

Oh and it gets better:

The Cologne assaults were not reported by the national media for days, and The Local says many news outlets started reporting it only after a wave of anger on social media made covering the story unavoidable.[49] This fuelled claims that the media was attempting to cover up crimes by immigrants.[50] Although Cologne Mayor Henriette Reker condemned the assaults, she was strongly criticized for some of her comments and was accused of blaming the victims. Cologne's police chief, Wolfgang Albers, was transferred to provisional retirement for his handling of the situation. The police response and delayed media reaction met strong criticism from German citizens, with some placing blame on the European migrant crisis.[30] The governments of Slovakia and the Czech Republic called for an emergency EU meeting following the assaults and various other EU governments made statements concerning the attacks.

It's almost like there's some sort of agenda being pushed.

Prime Minister of Hungary Viktor Orbán issued a call for immediate halt of all immigration to Europe and establishment of "European defence line" on Greece's northern borders with Macedonia and Bulgaria.[212]

Thankfully somebody gets it.