Tech Tree Revisions

[MacCoise]

Speaking of Mathematics - the concept of "Zero" really deserves its own tech.

 

[<Nexus>]

I think religious civics could be revised a bit:

I think State Church and Free Church appear too early, so you don't really have a chance to use Prophets/Divine Cult.
To be honest I never ever used DC, it just doesn't worth it, there isn't much war early in the game that should bother war weariness.
I think there are a lot of place in classical and medevial eras to push State Church and Free Church behind.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I think religious civics could be revised a bit:

I think State Church and Free Church appear too early, so you don't really have a chance to use Prophets/Divine Cult.
To be honest I never ever used DC, it just doesn't worth it, there isn't much war early in the game that should bother war weariness.
I think there are a lot of place in classical and medevial eras to push State Church and Free Church behind.

I think I agree but let's see what Vokarya has to say.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Speaking of Mathematics - the concept of "Zero" really deserves its own tech.

While I would mathematically agree, I don't think it's necessary for gameplay.

 

[Rezca]

While I would mathematically agree, I don't think it's necessary for gameplay.

Especially since it'd likely end up being a "filler tech" like C2C's Abyssal Colonization and Mythological Bestiary - both of which (last time I checked) do nothing, unlock nothing, enhance nothing, and enable nothing. They just are "there" and have to waste turns researching them to open up other techs. There *are* a few dragon models and units floating around, and other mythical beasties, (The one in Mongoose Mod is resistant to nukes? xD) so I don't know why that latter tech does nothing.

If someone could come up with a few things for such a tech then maybe, but I still think it might just be more complexity in the tech tree than is really needed at the time.

 

[<Nexus>]

Well the "Zero tech" has a usefullnes equal of zero

But that gives an idea of a new wonder or project:

Euclidean geometry

• Requires Mathemathic
• Can only be built be GScientist
• +5% and for everyone
• +5% and for builder civ

 

[Vokarya]

Especially since it'd likely end up being a "filler tech" like C2C's Abyssal Colonization and Mythological Bestiary - both of which (last time I checked) do nothing, unlock nothing, enhance nothing, and enable nothing. They just are "there" and have to waste turns researching them to open up other techs. There *are* a few dragon models and units floating around, and other mythical beasties, (The one in Mongoose Mod is resistant to nukes? xD) so I don't know why that latter tech does nothing.

If someone could come up with a few things for such a tech then maybe, but I still think it might just be more complexity in the tech tree than is really needed at the time.

Totally agreed. I believe techs need to "pull their own weight" and have at least a couple of good things available for successfully researching the tech. This is why I felt justified in adding Absolutism -- I had a couple of things that I could move to it right away (Taj Mahal and Versailles) and at least one other idea in the wings (Autocracy power civic). Zero as a tech would probably not be able to do this.

 

[Vokarya]

I think I agree but let's see what Vokarya has to say.

I agree State Church comes too early. The difficulty with shuffling religion civics is that many of the techs that currently have religion civics are one- or two-trick-pony techs and really can't afford to have anything taken away without a replacement. There also aren't many good religious techs during the Classical Era.

I think this would be a possibility:

• Divine Cult to Scriptures
• State Church to Papacy
• Free Church to Humanism
• Secular to Constitution

Are we going to do a Civics project soon? I have a couple ideas I'm hanging on to for when we do that.

 

[Vokarya]

Well the "Zero tech" has a usefullnes equal of zero

But that gives an idea of a new wonder or project:

Euclidean geometry

• Requires Mathemathic
• Can only be built be GScientist
• +5% and for everyone
• +5% and for builder civ

Hang onto this for a while. I was looking at the latest version of Realism Invictus and they have instituted a system of Great Works that can be built by Great Artists. I would really like to include that system, but you've given me an idea to extend it to Great Scientific Works as well, and Euclid's Elements would be a great one for that.

 

[<Nexus>]

Hang onto this for a while. I was looking at the latest version of Realism Invictus and they have instituted a system of Great Works that can be built by Great Artists. I would really like to include that system, but you've given me an idea to extend it to Great Scientific Works as well, and Euclid's Elements would be a great one for that.

Cool It would be great to give GPs more things to do.
I really miss that they cannot build Projects at all

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Hang onto this for a while. I was looking at the latest version of Realism Invictus and they have instituted a system of Great Works that can be built by Great Artists. I would really like to include that system, but you've given me an idea to extend it to Great Scientific Works as well, and Euclid's Elements would be a great one for that.

Sounds great. Have you seen if it needs dll coding? I'm more than willing to try and merge this idea in the game core if needed!

 

[<Nexus>]

I agree State Church comes too early. The difficulty with shuffling religion civics is that many of the techs that currently have religion civics are one- or two-trick-pony techs and really can't afford to have anything taken away without a replacement. There also aren't many good religious techs during the Classical Era.

I think this would be a possibility:

• Divine Cult to Scriptures
• State Church to Papacy
• Free Church to Humanism
• Secular to Constitution

I think Divine Cult should stay where it is. They make a nice pair with prophets. Two oposite alternatives to chose from.
The rest sounds very, but will see later how they really work.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I agree State Church comes too early. The difficulty with shuffling religion civics is that many of the techs that currently have religion civics are one- or two-trick-pony techs and really can't afford to have anything taken away without a replacement. There also aren't many good religious techs during the Classical Era.

I think this would be a possibility:

• Divine Cult to Scriptures
• State Church to Papacy
• Free Church to Humanism
• Secular to Constitution

Are we going to do a Civics project soon? I have a couple ideas I'm hanging on to for when we do that.

I think that your proposal sounds very good.
As for Civics, my original plan was to start developing them starting from May/June. But changing civics is a very delicate matter because it will throw everything off balance, so my idea was to develop a new civics system but making it separate from the main game for the moment and test it separately. Then, once we're sure everything works, we can integrate the new system into the main game.
IIRC Afforess liked the current civic system and found no particular problem with it. Since he's on the forum these days, I wonder what he's to say about it.

 

[Vokarya]

Sounds great. Have you seen if it needs dll coding? I'm more than willing to try and merge this idea in the game core if needed!

I think it will need some new DLL coding, for two reasons: one, there are some effects that can't be done with the current XML (for example: Hamlet gives +1 to Theatre; American Gothic gives +1 to Granary; Voynich Manuscript gives +1 to University), and two, I think it would stress the Limited Wonders system too much without differentiating Wonders and Works, but that's a separate thing.

I have a lot of other ideas that I can do without needing DLL coding, so I'd like to work on those first. Once that's done or mostly so, then we can look further.

 

[Vokarya]

I think that your proposal sounds very good.
As for Civics, my original plan was to start developing them starting from May/June. But changing civics is a very delicate matter because it will throw everything off balance, so my idea was to develop a new civics system but making it separate from the main game for the moment and test it separately. Then, once we're sure everything works, we can integrate the new system into the main game.
IIRC Afforess liked the current civic system and found no particular problem with it. Since he's on the forum these days, I wonder what he's to say about it.

I'm fine with the current civics, but I would like to see some more options. I would like to see Virtual Democracy as a Government civic, Theocracy and Autocracy Power civics, and a bunch of different Military civics.

 

[Vokarya]

I think Divine Cult should stay where it is. They make a nice pair with prophets. Two oposite alternatives to chose from.
The rest sounds very, but will see later how they really work.

I can't take State Church away from Scriptures without reducing it to one-trick status, which I really don't want to do. You would still have Prophets and Divine Cult as your options throughout the late Ancient and entire Classical eras (unless you get Shwedagon Paya), and I think that's fair.

 

[Rezca]

I can't take State Church away from Scriptures without reducing it to one-trick status, which I really don't want to do. You would still have Prophets and Divine Cult as your options throughout the late Ancient and entire Classical eras (unless you get Shwedagon Paya), and I think that's fair.

Does anyone ever really use Divine Cult though? There's so many negatives attached to it in AND that I hardly ever use it, and its unique building goes obsolete so quickly too.

 

[Vokarya]

Does anyone ever really use Divine Cult though? There's so many negatives attached to it in AND that I hardly ever use it, and its unique building goes obsolete so quickly too.

It does need some work - I barely understand it myself.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I could make some small adjustament to some civics; I think you're all right about Divine Cult. Actually same goes for that +100% military units and -50% culture for MAD. I have a list of things to correct for the next revision, I could add those too.

 

[Vokarya]

As I've said before, I really want all of the techs on the Tech Tree to be worth researching in and of themselves, not just as waypoints to another tech. I'm looking deeply into the techs that have very little attached and if I can't even come up with a possibility for what else to attach to a given tech, that's a good cue to consider removing the tech in question. One tech where I think this is definitely in play is 3D Modeling.

3D Modeling currently offers the following:

• One building: the Design Studio
• Outgoing links to three techs: Climate Models, Nanotechnology, Virtual Reality

This is not very much. I think what we should do is merge this tech with Microprocessor. Microprocessor becomes the prerequisite for the Design Studio and all three techs. It also pulls MP out of OTP status by giving it a second building to go alongside the Solar Plant. Can anyone think of something else that might save this tech?