technology theft

[Astat]

i know i'm the 1000th person to start such a thread, but i couldn't find an appropriate thread using search, so there you go:

as it appears, receiving technology by force is no longer possible in civ4 - i'm pretty sure this is thanks to many lame tech-players who hated losing their best techs to stupid diplomats or whatever. anyway, the concept may have needed some reworking, but was cutting it out entirely really the best solution?

actual reason for this posting:
as i already discussed in another thread, my style of playing civ4 is still a bit awkward.. i end up having many cities and good production, but the AI best-friends club keeps leaving me behind technologically.
i am currently in my second civ4 game, and this afternoon, my huge armies stood at the doors of another empire's last city for the second time. and then we have this crazy louis XIV, refusing to give away A SINGLE of his 5 or so techs that i yet have to research as a price for peace.
what then happened was identical to this situation with the last aztec city about 200 years ago: my units overrun the morons and the civilization vanishes, taking so much knowledge with them. i feel cheated.. especially since it seems so strange that civilizations would rather die out than hand me over a few of their damn technologies.. what have i ever done to them? (it was always them starting the wars in this round, btw)

why did they remove the "get one free tech per captured city" concept? who could honestly argue against it in past games?

 

[Willem]

as i already discussed in another thread, my style of playing civ4 is still a bit awkward.. i end up having many cities and good production, but the AI best-friends club keeps leaving me behind technologically.

I haven't seen any evidence of a "best-friends club". If I have a tech that they don't most civs are happy to make a trade, provided I have half-decent relations with them. Maybe you should settle for less cities so you have more gold for research, and cultivate a few friends instead of beating on whoever you meet. Don't blame the game if you're not managing your priorities properly.

why did they remove the "get one free tech per captured city" concept? who could honestly argue against it in past games?

That was way overpowered. It meant that warmongers never had to research, they just took what they needed. Although I wouldn't mind seeing a free tech if you capture someone's capital.

 

[Jason Fliegel]

The "one free tech per city" concept from Civ2 was pretty unbalanced, but I agree that the current model is pretty unbalanced the other way. If you fall behind in tech, it can be next to impossible to catch up.

What I'd like to see is some kind of passive tech-spreading technology, where there's a small percentage chance each turn that you'll discover a tech if other civs you're in contact with have the tech (similar to the way there's a small percentage chance that a religion will spontaneously spread to one of your cities).

 

[Rayjr]

I must admit I to miss that feature.... techs in general seem to be a little harder to get a hold of. You can't steal them, trading for them is always a pain, demanding them rarely works, and yeah its thier last city the entire civ beaten to a pulp why not hand over everything you got for just a few more turns..... maybe they know I will just redeclare war on them after they give it to me and whipe them out.

 

[Willem]

maybe they know I will just redeclare war on them after they give it to me and whipe them out.

And that's exactly why that exploit was removed from the game. Take their tech making you even stronger, then renege on your agreement and take another one soon after.

 

[Nilrim]

i end up having many cities and good production, but the AI best-friends club keeps leaving me behind technologically.

Well some people play with 'trade tec disabled' option so they can't trade tecs with each other. Personally I don't like this option, if I get an advanced tec that none of the other civs have and yet I am lacking a few that most of them have I will trade that tec to as many Civs as I can to obtain many tecs for the one that they would of traded around for themselfs anyway. If you are smart about it you can use tec trading to your advantage. If you would prefer not to mess with it just turn the no trade tec option on.

-

 

[Astat]

I haven't seen any evidence of a "best-friends club". If I have a tech that they don't most civs are happy to make a trade, provided I have half-decent relations with them. Maybe you should settle for less cities so you have more gold for research, and cultivate a few friends instead of beating on whoever you meet. Don't blame the game if you're not managing your priorities properly.

hey, why the aggressive reply?
1) didnt i clearly describe my current style of playing as awkward, while losing no bad word about the game? (i'd marry civ4 if i could stick that damn ring onto the DVD)
i've already gotten a bunch of tipps in my other thread, it mainly comes down to me neglecting those cottages, but thats not the point now.
2) as i already explained in my previous posting, i never started the first war in my current game, so there's nothing like "beating on whoever i meet". i do, however, enjoy crippling the very civ that had so much fun destroying all my fishing boats for no reason whatsoever when they were oh so strong with their frigates and all..

actually, most empires were friendly or pleased in my current game.. until they suddenly decided to declare war on me.. i still got a few pleased empires left, but one of them won't give me any tech as he is "fearing i might get too advanced" (i've always been half a dozen techs behind him) while another one obviously still doesn't like me enough to gift me anything even after i gave him two of my faraway cities before one of those stupid omnipotent warmongers could take them.


well, but i do blame the game for not causing the AI to trade me techs for anything but other techs.. aztecs and french preferred to die after losing the wars they had started instead of teaching me a single technology for peace...



and the tech trading feature is an important aspect of the game, i love it.. why are you all so mad about my little "AI best-friends wit"? come on, laugh with me..

 

[Astat]

And that's exactly why that exploit was removed from the game. Take their tech making you even stronger, then renege on your agreement and take another one soon after.

well it's not difficult to make the AI remember every time you betrayed others in such a cruel way.. additionally, every treaty buys them 10 rounds of peace, that is something already.

 

[Blossome]

... maybe not entirely fitting into your very scenario, however i was able to gain new technologies once offering peace to them and basically demanding that as a trade of for them to survive... naturally, i would take two or three cities from them at first... ::giggles::...

 

[Willem]

hey, why the aggressive reply?

Maybe this comment has something to do with it. Insult other players and you just might get the same back:

"i'm pretty sure this is thanks to many lame tech-players who hated losing their best techs to stupid diplomats or whatever."

well, but i do blame the game for not causing the AI to trade me techs for anything but other techs..

Well you'll just have make sure you have something to offer then. Take a few lessons from the "lame tech-players" and you might find the other civs are more willing to trade with you. And they don't just look for an exchange in techs, I've been offered techs for gold before. Just more than I wanted to spend at the time. Have you ever tried to haggle with them?

why are you all so mad about my little "AI best-friends wit"? come on, laugh with me..

Because it's simply not true. It makes it sound like you're blaming the game for your own shortcomings.

 

[Moonsinger]

i am currently in my second civ4 game, and this afternoon, my huge armies stood at the doors of another empire's last city for the second time. and then we have this crazy louis XIV, refusing to give away A SINGLE of his 5 or so techs that i yet have to research as a price for peace.

If this was Civ3, he would most likely turn over all of his techs in exchange for peace. In Civ4, you need to be more creative. First, you or whomever you demand techs from must have known the secret of the Alphabet. The number of techs he's willing to give in exchange for peace is magically linked to the relationship between you and him. When I have time, I will do some tests to locate the optimal tactic. In the meantime, use the following guildlines to maximize the number techs you can get in exchange for peace:

1. It will help if your state religion is the same as his. If not, switch to his religion first.
2. It will help if you haven't raze any of his cities (note: also try to avoid auto-raze if you can).
3. It will help if you haven't yet destroyed a holy city.
4. It will help you didn't declare war. If you start the war, after so many wars (after 4 or 5 more war declarations from you), he would rather die than to give you anything. On the other hand, there seems to be no limit on the number of time he declares war on you. In fact, you would get a big pay off if he started the war and lost. The trick is how to get him to declare war again.

That's all I have learned so far in my games. Good luck! It isn't like Civ3, but it's doable in Civ4.

 

[Bushface]

I agree that getting 1 tech per captured city is far too much, but if only it were possible to gain even one free tech from the destruction of another civ ! That is, of course, if they had a tech that you don't have.
Maybe the Conquistadores could, if they had wanted, have learned something from the civilisations they simply wiped out. And didn't Ancient Egypt pinch the wheel from somebody (Hittites ?) ?

 

[Shadzy19]

The free tech for capturing a city in Civ2 was completly broken.
I do miss the spies being able to steal techs though , its not like it was broken with the high cost / risk , i still wonder why they took that out.

 

[Willem]

The free tech for capturing a city in Civ2 was completly broken.
I do miss the spies being able to steal techs though , its not like it was broken with the high cost / risk , i still wonder why they took that out.

Because the AI didn't use them very well, which gave the human an advantage. Even when it was clear that there was nothing to be gained from sending in a Spy, it would do so and only get a map of the world that it had already taken the turn before. This was a real waste of AI production.

 

[Astat]

well i'd simply argue that the current concept runs contrary to an accurate depiction of human history. wars and military campaigns and everything that came with them have often been a major cause for cultural exchange, as cynical as this may sound now. (think back to alexander the great..)

to that guy who was annoyed about me calling the "lame tech players": i was just trying to be funny in that whole posting, calm down again. ive alway been on the technological/cultural side as well in civ1-3, just have to get used to the different conditions of civ4 yet. (once again, it's my second round, i just dont want to give it up even though i'm hopelessly behind while others are building the space ship.. finishing second would be satisfying for a change, dont always have to fight for first place)

thanks to you guys giving me hints, but it's not that i'm a major noob or something - i do know about the idea of researching an expensive hi-end tech, then trading it to 5 other nations in the same turn.. it was just that the AI, at one point, didnt feel like trading techs with me any more as they were fearing i might "get too advanced"... how ironic.
i guess this happens when you have 4 times as many cities as them, they just fear your economic power and dont want to give up their technological advantage.

@Moonsinger
yes yes, but as i said - it was him declaring war on me, for no good reason.. and they all have positive relations towards me due to massive trade, age-old peaceful relations, gift i gave them and whatnot. i even saw them being cautious after they had already declared war on me, if my eyes didnt trick me.
i guess its just that all the small empires fear me and my potential military might, thus refuse to support me with modern technology - which, in the long run, is the cause to their doom.. how paradox.
so i'm the germans now and pumping out those Panzer units since i got nothing else to do - "ambitious.. and misunderstood"

 

[HawkeyeGS]

It is always a good idea to research techs that the AI don't have. After a few games you can see what research priorities they have. You research one or two good techs and trade them to everyone for all the little ones you neglected on your path. It helps you it helps them but the main thing is you are in control. You can simply hold a tech if you so wish.

 

[vsipinen]

And that's exactly why that exploit was removed from the game. Take their tech making you even stronger, then renege on your agreement and take another one soon after.

Wouldn't it be better to find some other way to prevent that exploit than disabling the player to demand technologies for peace ? How about making declaration of war much harder - especially against civilizations from which you have extorted something. There could be even be some time period in which declaration of war would be totally impossible, and after that somewhat longer period in which it could cause some major problems like multiple turns of anarchy. The length of anarchy could perhaps depend on how many wars have you declared during some time period.

If that would not be strong enough to discourage using that exploit, how about some of your cities and units defecting to your enemy in real outrageous cases. Of course there should be some warning about it, when you are declaring war.

 

[Astat]

well vsipinen, there is a 10 turn forced peace whenever tribute is paid as a price for the ceasefire!
additionally, in previous civ's, the AI always said things like "you have once betrayed the XXX, we don't trust you anymore"... this aspect could get stressed a bit more, just make other AI civs less forgiving if you disregard any diplomatic rules.

 

[jefmart1]

I agree that the free tech per captured city was overpowered, but the concept was based in reality. When you capture an enemy territory in real life you get his labs, scientists, prototypes etc. At the very least you should be able to reverse engineer it.

Perhaps a compromise: Capturing enemy cities gives you research points towards various tech you don't own based on the city size and maybe what improvements in it. I also like the small chance of tech spread suggested earlier and in other threads. I think that a country without radios, adjacent to one that has radios will eventually get radios. Be it via retail trade or smuggling, or reverse engineering. In "Guns, Germs, & Steel", an excellent read for Civvers btw, he explains that knowing of the existence of a technology (or knowing that it CAN be done) increases research and leads to eventual development of the tech.

As to the diplomacy: It sucks. They need more options, maybe longer peace agreements in return for tech, etc.

I am a warmonger though, so that does color my opinion.

 

[vsipinen]

well vsipinen, there is a 10 turn forced peace whenever tribute is paid as a price for the ceasefire!
additionally, in previous civ's, the AI always said things like "you have once betrayed the XXX, we don't trust you anymore"... this aspect could get stressed a bit more, just make other AI civs less forgiving if you disregard any diplomatic rules.

I hadn't noticed that 10 turn limit. Perhaps it could be even longer, at least if the tribute has been more valuable. (I mean that mandatory peace could be longer if you get expensive technology than if you get little gold).

What would be considered betraying a civilization ? Does it mean that if you get some tribute as price of peace, you can never again attack that civilization without being considered as betraying it ? Or is there some time period after which it is not considered as betraying ? Actually I do not normally attack very much other civilization in my games, but I am just curious - and I was little dissapointed that in my recent game I was not able to get any technology from a civilization although I had desctroyed all except one defender of the last city of that civilization.