Temple of Artemis?

[ShoGuL]

I tried to do a quick search on the past dozen or so pages of threads, but no one seems to mention this wonder, and I wonder why!

I do a variety of tradition/liberty starts but almost no matter my starting strategy, I find myself hovering towards this wonder in the beginning of the game.. it just seems like such a good deal to me.

So please help me, why does no one care for this little beauty?

It's going to pay dividends for the entire game, with a +10% food bonus in every city.. but that's not the primary reason why I like it. It's one of the ancient wonders that provides a Great Engineer point.. and it does it so early, it guarantees a high medieval wonder of your choice (depending on how I feel I am doing in the race, I like using it for one of the HS/PT/Notre Dame wonders).

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the early GE wonders are Temple of Artemis, Stonehenge and The Pyramids.. they all cost 185 production, and of those the Temple of Artemis is the only one to be had after just 1 tech. +Culture from Stonehenge is nice, and an option since you need calendar for luxuries.. but I find it hard to justify early masonry for the Pyramids, and +10% bonus food for the entire game still seems to clearly win out.

I typically research it very early, go something like scout -> worker(if tradition, else monument) -> Temple of Artemis.. from there I'm free to get more settlers, or I have even landed the Great Library / The Oracle.. I'm also rather fond of the tradition / temple of artemis / hanging gardens start if I land a very high production capital, since that guarantees a super-capital, but I have found the hanging gardens something of a gamble of late.

I'm looking forward to hearing your views on the Temple of Artemis, and why you don't think it deserves our love

(I typically play Emperor/Immortal, depending on mood.. I almost always win on Emperor though).

 

[FeiLing]

Low difficulty: You build all wonders anyway.
High difficulty: You must concentrate on very few wonders and since the AI has some starting techs and more scouting units at start to pop ruins and bonus settlers and bonus production you will not be able to build the early wonders, especially ToA.

Also: For the CCF HoF games must be played without DLC

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

I've been ignoring the ToA in favour of the Great Library but I didn't realise that it had the engineering point, so thanks for the heads up! As...well...not the greatest player of Civ V (but a keen player and modder) I've been building up my strategy and now build only the wonders I really need - but will give ToA another look .

 

[ShoGuL]

High difficulty: You must concentrate on very few wonders and since the AI has some starting techs and more scouting units at start to pop ruins and bonus settlers and bonus production you will not be able to build the early wonders, especially ToA.

I understand what you are trying to say, and I agree with the sentiment that you have to concentrate on the few wonders you need.. you certainly can't get all of them. I only reasonably expect to grab one of the ancient era wonders (skipping an ancient era wonder is a choice I suppose, but I like wonders ) -- but then you finish by adding 'especially ToA' and this is the part I question.

It seems to be an accepted fact around here that the only ancient era wonder worth having is The Great Library.. why do you disqualify ToA (and go so far as to say especially ToA, meaning you clearly put it in the lowest tier)?

 

[FeiLing]

Because ToA comes with Archery. AIs can start to build it on Turn 0.
And for the player Archery is usually delayed a lot (unless you are Babylon).

 

[ShoGuL]

Because ToA comes with Archery. AIs can start to build it on Turn 0.
And for the player Archery is usually delayed a lot (unless you are Babylon).

Fair enough, that's a good point . I don't play Deity so I can't speak for that, but I've never lost the ToA on Emperor at least (with the build in the OP).. can't say for sure on Immortal, but it doesn't seem like the AI prioritize it very highly.

I'm more interested in discussing the merits of getting the wonder, though, compared to other choices available - assuming you can get it (by making obvious sacrifices in your build - sneaking in an early archery is required, but at least it's just one quick tech).

 

[Manlius]

High difficulty: You must concentrate on very few wonders and since the AI has some starting techs and more scouting units at start to pop ruins and bonus settlers and bonus production you will not be able to build the early wonders, especially ToA.

I haven't met Egypt in a while but in my last 3 deity games ToA went around turn 39. If you prioritize it is certainly doable and you'd get a small refund on the turns spent when building a defence of archers. However ToA provides a long term benefit and in those precious first turns I'm looking to get kickstarted. Beside that happiness is usually the limiting growth factor in my games. Later in the game, maybe after building ND, there is still the possibility to boost growth with the help of a maritime CS (or conquering the ToA).

 

[joncnunn]

AI is in love with this wonder.
And at a high enough difficulty level even has the tech to build this on turn 1.

So this is always on my nice to conquer list rather than one I actually try to build.

 

[MasterMishi]

early mas for pyra is as good, quick and 2 free workers can mean more hammers, gold, happy, res all game earlier
more so if you go lib for lots city
esp since you want to make workers anyway

 

[Gough Whitlam]

It's a useful wonder to build, but the GL is a must build and will take precedence. It's useful to build but often the AI will build it before you get a chance.

 

[FromBirth]

I'm with ShoGul on this. I sometimes struggle with production so I've been experimenting with as many food assisting buildings and wonders as possible to enable more tiles to be worked. Pottery first for granary, Archery second for ToA the HG with a water mill on the way if possible, keeping focus on food most, if not all the time. Production problem solved but I've found myself hemmed in and on the defensive.
On emperor I can get both wonders 90% of the time, not so much on immortal but if I went for GL I often get beaten to that on immortal anyway.
I disagree with Gough Whitlam that the GL is even a must build on anything less than diety (which I haven't played, I just going off other posts).
On immortal I find I need to go on the offensive very soon so an archer rush or 3/4 city sword rush serves me much better. This would usually mean I don't go for any ancient wonders at all.
So, it goes back to what your goals are and how you like to play the game, ToA certainly has a place in my game but I know it will result in a small number of huge cities which suits a tradition opening and maybe a culture win. Not necessarily optimal but still strong and certainly winnable as you can go most VC, even dom after artillery.

 

[budweiser]

Not necessarily optimal but still strong and certainly winnable as you can go most VC, even dom after artillery.

I think the best players can win the game in 250 turns. For us that means we have 500 turns to do something that by game design can be achieved in 250. So there is lots of room for error.

 

[FromBirth]

@Budwiser

Fine, let's assume though that you start using ToA instead of your usual GL start (I'm guessing here, sorry if you typically use a different approach) how many extra turns are you adding to your victory assuming the rest of the game is played how you normally would. Let's also assume (if you don't mind) that you are not going aggressive expansion right from the start.
If you are talking about getting the very quickest times then OK, like I said, it's not optimal but still strong. Otherwise, I don't see too many turns added? It gives extra food in each city, a reasonably early GE, reduced ranged unit cost which all would make some contribution to offsetting the gains from a GL approach (or any other non ToA approach).
I feel like I'm getting sucked in to defending the ToA. It's not my favourite wonder but does have it's own charm.

 

[flairin]

cool, don't think I will forget ToA again. Playing emperor as Russia built it last game by turn 30 then followed it up with Pyramids and Great Wall by turn 50 (not easy). GE points at three so a GE by turn 70 along with policy engineer and HS engineer = three insta wonders. At turn 120 GE production at 15 per turn in capital. Oh, and able to squeeze out a GS as well. Was able to build GL by turn 60 as well.

 

[FromBirth]

@Flairin

Good work fella. I guess you would be what they call a wonder whore?

 

[The_Quasar]

AI is in love with this wonder.
And at a high enough difficulty level even has the tech to build this on turn 1.

This is the problem, the vast majority of times, trying to build ToA is turns wasted.

So this is always on my nice to conquer list rather than one I actually try to build.

Exactly...

 

[Just4Fun]

I like ToA the military production and growth bonuses are nice. I found out tonight it's very doable on immortal. I got it and the GL.

 

[budweiser]

@Budwiser

Fine, let's assume though that you start using ToA instead of your usual GL start (I'm guessing here, sorry if you typically use a different approach) how many extra turns are you adding to your victory assuming the rest of the game is played how you normally would. Let's also assume (if you don't mind) that you are not going aggressive expansion right from the start.
If you are talking about getting the very quickest times then OK, like I said, it's not optimal but still strong. Otherwise, I don't see too many turns added? It gives extra food in each city, a reasonably early GE, reduced ranged unit cost which all would make some contribution to offsetting the gains from a GL approach (or any other non ToA approach).
I feel like I'm getting sucked in to defending the ToA. It's not my favourite wonder but does have it's own charm.

ToA is one of the many ancient era wonders that give GE points. The GL gives science points which puts you on a different track. I don’t always play for the GL because it’s not always possible to line up a decent tech like theology/Civil Service to coincide with the finish of the GL. In my opinion, there is not much sense taking an 8 turn tech for all the cost and risk of the GL. Most of these Ancient Era wonders are more map dependent than anything else. I don’t think you should roll up a game thinking, I am going to go for this wonder this time. Its too risky because the AIs can start making wonders by turn 40. You just have to look at the starting map and your starting tech path, your neighbors etc, and make a decision based on that. Given those conditions, I wont usually try for any wonders unless I have Marble and possibly Aristocracy in place already.

The biggest attraction for me of ToA is the 1 GE point if I am trying to stack GE points in my cap.

 

[ense7en]

I do like ToA, but i don't usally go for Archery right away unless i'm going for Hanging Gardens, and i generally only go that route for Cultural wins.

Then there's the fact the AI gets it much too early usually...

 

[Light Cleric]

I agree with conquering it instead of building it. I was trying out snarz's archery rush on Deity(and it actually kind of got it to work!...but I think I f'ed up the mid-game lol) and Greece built it by like turn 25, far earlier than a human player can possibly get it. His capital was right next to me though so I got it after all