The Ancient Mediterranean MOD

[Karhgath]

@Karhgath:
I really like your tech tree. Just a few changes that I would suggest:
- Stirrups came to Europe after 500 AD. It was a (conscious) historical mistake in TAM, and I want something different now. How about we put in something like "Chain Mail"? Not sure when it was invented, but it could be some other mail too. Or simply call it "Heavy Armour". Tactics would then have no requirement. Chivalry would require Heavy Armour.

Yeah, that's a good idea. Chain mail were used by some iberian tribes and gallic tribes too, it was incorporated into the roman army around Hadrian IIRC.

For stirrups, it really depends if we have Huns as playable or not. Huns did have something similar to stirrups, although it never spread before later on.

- Compass: Not sure that was invented by then. Columbus didn't have a compass, he used this triangular thing that I forgot the name of. How about we rename it "Geometry"? With map making you can trade maps, geometry centers the world map.

Yeah, I just took compass from the vanilla game, but Geometry would make much more sense and have the same purpose.

- Crop rotation: A medieval invention I think. Gotta look that up.

Actually, there are talk of crop rotation during imperial rome, although it was probably basic.

- Architecture: Where did that disappear? I think it should go like this:

Masonry -> Construction -> Architecture
__________ Construction -> Bridge Building -> Road Building

Architecture would allow the construction of one or two nice wonders.

It depends, architecture as a science really appeared later with cathedral building and increased urbanization and such, construction is much more appropriate to ancient era, but in the end it really comes down to: will architecture allow some specific building/unit/etc. compared to construction? If we find something unique that wouldn't go in construction, let's go for it.

- Ballistics: Should require Geometry then.
- Literature: Requires Alphabet anyway, doesn't need the extra requirement.

Oh, didn't catch that.

If you agree on this, can you modify these changes in? Oh, and it should be Code of Laws (plural) I think.

I will make the changes.

 

[Karhgath]

Here's the color coded tech tree

Updated tech tree

 

[marknau]

Great mod project. I've been playing v0.8, and am very excited by it.
What is the current train of thought regarding the end of the game? There can certainly be a Hun invasion set to happen around a certain date, and a big part of the game is to try to establish world empire before that happens. Or, failing that, to hold onto as much as you can as the tide washes over you.
The concept of the Christianity Domination win is also interesting, but who would win? The holy city holder? Or would you want to have a way of establishing Papacy, an then the Pope wins?

 

[Rhianni]

Concrete? They didn't have concrete back then, did they?

The Romans used it quite a bit actually
"The Romans used pozzolana cement from Pozzuoli, Italy near Mt. Vesuvius to build many famous Roman structures including the Appian Way, the Roman Baths of Caracalla, the Basilica of Maxentius, the Coliseum and Pantheon in Rome, and the Pont du Gard aqueduct in south France. They used broken brick aggregate embedded in a mixture of lime putty with brick dust or volcanic ash by the Romans. Many structures that used stone. They built ~5,300 miles of roads. The current U.S. Interstate Highway System has 4,200 miles. "
There is referance in about a dozen sites by googling history of concrete

 

[Sword Dancer]

Concrete? They didn't have concrete back then, did they?

In fact, it was the Greeks who first came up with concrete, but it was of a very slow-setting variety -- in some cases it could take up to 20 years to cure properly.

The Romans took the idea and using volcanic sand from the Na[poli region, improved on it immensely, even coming up with concrete that would set underwater.

 

[CaesarCS]

Well... I came out of lurking for this...

I believe concrete was really perfected by the Romans in the second centuryBC, certainly early enough to have an effect on the world of TAM.

 

[rho]

Updated tech tree

A few thoughts:

Mysticism already requires nature cult, so having astrology require mysticism and nature cult doens't make much sense.

I don't think I agree with having epics require alphabet, since many old tales were recounted orally for many generations before being written down. Maybe remove alphabet as a requirement for epics, and then add it back as a requirement for literature?

Ceremonial burial seems to be rather too late on the chart, given that burial mounds tens of thousands of years old are known. Possibly move ceremonial burial to be one of the first techs, with no requirement, then have mysticism require that rather than nature cult? (which would aslo solve the problem of requirement) Then maybe put something like "temples" where cermeonial burial is now?

Monarchy and city states have exactly the same reqs, which seems a little odd. Maybe change monarchy to require something like code of laws and heroism?

Mounted combat -> recurve bow -> mounted archery doesn't seem to make sense to me.

You don't seem to have any either/or advances. Is that intentional? For instance, you could have urbanization requiring animal husbandry or agriculture.

 

[Karhgath]

A few thoughts:

Mysticism already requires nature cult, so having astrology require mysticism and nature cult doens't make much sense.

Ceremonial burial seems to be rather too late on the chart, given that burial mounds tens of thousands of years old are known. Possibly move ceremonial burial to be one of the first techs, with no requirement, then have mysticism require that rather than nature cult? (which would aslo solve the problem of requirement) Then maybe put something like "temples" where cermeonial burial is now?

Hmmm... Yup, you are right, after checking things out, ceremonial burials were practiced even before 4000 BC. This means it should be a starting tech... Astrology came later, at around 500-400 BC, so it should be moved to the bronze age. I'd add mysticism directly before.

Ceremonial burial could lead to Cuneiform? Mysticism requires Nature Cult and lead to astrology which requires Meditation, a new tech requiring Ceremonial Burial and Mysticism. I'd rename the current ceremonial burial to something representing advanced burial techniques(would lead to pyramids and such), any ideas for a name? Maybe Burial Grounds?

I don't think I agree with having epics require alphabet, since many old tales were recounted orally for many generations before being written down. Maybe remove alphabet as a requirement for epics, and then add it back as a requirement for literature?

It requires heroism OR alphabet. Many were oral, but a lot of greek legends and epics were also written. Don't forget that arrows on the tech trees means "OR".

Monarchy and city states have exactly the same reqs, which seems a little odd. Maybe change monarchy to require something like code of laws and heroism?

Noted, Heroism makes sense.

Mounted combat -> recurve bow -> mounted archery doesn't seem to make sense to me.

Recurve bows were developped for the express purpose of horseback archery, since long bows weren't usable on horseback. Native Indians also used them because of the difficulty of using longbows in forests, but this path doesn't really affect TAM, as only horseback nations developped the recurve bow in the mediterranean. So Mounted Combat must be a prerequisite, unless you see something I don't?

You don't seem to have any either/or advances. Is that intentional? For instance, you could have urbanization requiring animal husbandry or agriculture.

Arrows are "OR", the tech in parentheses are "AND". It's noted about agriculture, I'll add it as a req. to Urbanization.


Ok, related notes:

I've pushed Monotheism earlier, Judaism was founded much earlier than it was on the tech tree.

I think Philosophy should come 1-2 techs earlier, but I dunno where to put it. It should lead to education, and not the opposite. Maybe Epics OR Geometry AND Meditation? It should trigger the classical age, not end it.

Also, the top of the tech tree has too many techs. For example, from masonry, Burial Grounds requires 7 techs, but only 4 if you get it from Meditation. I'm thinking of removing Trade and start directly with The Wheel, and maybe Copper Working requiring Tools instead of Wood Working?

 

[The Last Conformist]

Mounted combat -> recurve bow -> mounted archery doesn't seem to make sense to me.

That's indeed odd. Recurved bows predate fighting from horseback, and as far as known, the first mounted fighters were horse archers.

I'd make Recurve Bow require Archery, and merge Mounted Combat and Mounted Archery to a single tech requiring Horseback Riding and Recurve Bow (if that's possible - I'm not too familiar with the whole XML stuff).

You could fill the then empty tech slot with a tech called "cavalry lance" or something, allowing Macedonian-style heavy cavalry.


Neither Epics nor Literature ought, historically, require Alphabet.


It seems odd that Monarchy comes only in the Classical era. In fact, there seems to be a distinct shortage of "political" techs in the first two eras.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Recurve bows were developped for the express purpose of horseback archery, since long bows weren't usable on horseback.

Reference?

The way I learnt it, recurved bows date from the 2nd millennium BC - before the advent of horseback fighting. It was the weapon of choice of later bronze age middle-eastern charioteers.

Edit: Keegan's A History of Warfare says the recurved bow may have been invented as early as in the 3rd millennium BC, and certainly was around in the mid-2nd. True cavalry - soldiers fighting from horseback - isn't known from before the eight century BC.

Edit2: How come Horseback Riding requires Animal Husb. but Chariot Warfare does not?

 

[Zuul]

What about hieroglyphs and runes as tech?

 

[Karhgath]

@Last Conformist

Hmmm... point taken, I'll see how I can place recurve bow earlier in the tech tree. I'll merge the techs in one Mounted Combat tech.

Cavalry Lance doesn't sound interesting, any other suggestion for a name?

As for monarchy, yeah, I realized that, Monarchy should be much earlier, but it's getting crowded. Where should it go?

@Zuul

Well, I think I'll call Cuneiform either Writing or Logograms like someone suggested. I hate the name logograms tho. It would include all forms of writing (cuneiform, runes, hieroglyph, etc.)

 

[The Last Conformist]

Cavalry Lance doesn't sound interesting, any other suggestion for a name?

I was trying to think of something more exciting, but didn't have much luck.

Cavalry Charge? Shock Tactics?

As for monarchy, yeah, I realized that, Monarchy should be much earlier, but it's getting crowded. Where should it go?

Somewhere around Agriculture, I suppose.

You should probably move Astrology forward to the Classic period, which would help keep the eras balanced. Mesopotamian astronomy, which was the provide the basis for at least the western tradition of astrology, only really got going in the last millennium BC.

Edit: Concerning the runes, they're technically a form of alphabet, not a logographic or syllabic writing system like cuneiform, hieroglyphs, or hanzi.

 

[Karhgath]

@Conformist

How about Cavalry Formation? Or simply Cavalry? Mounted Warfare?

Monarchy should require at least Polytheism or something like that. There's usually a strong religous basis for a Monarchy (chosen by the gods). Agriculture is a bit early. How about ... despotism or dynasticism early on?

So, Astronomy is a prereq to Astrology instead of the other way around?

 

[The Last Conformist]

@Conformist

How about Cavalry Formation? Or simply Cavalry? Mounted Warfare?

The later two would fit just as well for the "Mounted Combat" tech. Cavalry Formation works, altho I think it sounds about as lame as Cavalry Lance.

Monarchy should require at least Polytheism or something like that. There's usually a strong religous basis for a Monarchy (chosen by the gods). Agriculture is a bit early. How about ... despotism or dynasticism early on?

Depends on what exactly we mean by "monarchy", I suppose. But something like the hereditary rulers of early Egypt and Sumer should be avaliable early on.

So, Astronomy is a prereq to Astrology instead of the other way around?

I'd think so, yes.

 

[Karhgath]

For gameplay purpose and to make the tech tree flow better, I'll leave astrology first, after checking a few books, I'm not really sure which one came first. I know Astrology spread to greece at around 400 BC, but it was used before by the babylonians so I say it should come early

 

[Karhgath]

Here's the color coded tech tree

Tech tree updated.

 

[onedreamer]

- Compass: Not sure that was invented by then. Columbus didn't have a compass, he used this triangular thing that I forgot the name of.

Sextant ?

How about we rename it "Geometry"? With map making you can trade maps, geometry centers the world map.

I don't think Geometry should center the map, but rather Astronomy.

- Architecture: Where did that disappear? I think it should go like this:

Masonry -> Construction -> Architecture
__________ Construction -> Bridge Building -> Road Building

Architecture would allow the construction of one or two nice wonders.

Don't forget Mathematics
Speaking of architecture, you're right, Romans (or Greek) did not use concrete. The material they used is not concrete, I don't know its translation in english though (malta in italian). Of course it is something similar but the difference between the two is still huge. Btw similar stuff was still used in the mountains in the beginning of the past century. Lastly, "concrete" had little to nothing to do with Alchemy. Anyone with zero knowledge of Alchemy can make it, that art is already included in Masonry and I don't think you need more (reduntant) techs in TAM, there are plenty already !

@RELIGIONS:
I suggest the following: Religions are founded automatically (via Python) whenever they were historically founded (ie. specific date) in the capitals of all the civs that eventually adopted the religions. They don't have holy cities. Their shrines can be built, but they are normal wonders.
Christianity must be researched and will produce a holy city. Christianity should be a cheap tech. I'm in favour of adding the spreading of Christianity to 50% of the cities of the world as victory condition.

very good ideas.

 

[thamis]

A little clarification on AND-OR gates and XML.

You can define one tech that is the main requirement.
Then you can define up to three techs which are additional requirements, which are OR gates.

So, on this tech tree, if a tech requires more than two techs, two of these are an OR gate. Monarchy, for example, would require Urbanization. Then you could either use Priesthood OR Monotheism to get it.

Astronomy, though, would require Mathematics AND Astrology (as there is no third tech).

I like the tech tree as it is now.

 

[thamis]

PS: Architecture should be a branch-off from Construction. You only need construction to bulid bridges. Architecture is about building great buildings, not useful ones. So you need construction to build castles and the Limes, while you need architecture to build the Parthenon and the Pyramids.