The Ancient Mediterranean MOD

[The Last Conformist]

Monarchy requiring Monotheism seems a tad odd. Otherwise I think Karhgath's latest techtree looks pretty good.

 

[Karhgath]

Ok, I've made a quick change to make architecture a new path

 

[Karhgath]

A little clarification on AND-OR gates and XML.

You can define one tech that is the main requirement.
Then you can define up to three techs which are additional requirements, which are OR gates.

So, on this tech tree, if a tech requires more than two techs, two of these are an OR gate. Monarchy, for example, would require Urbanization. Then you could either use Priesthood OR Monotheism to get it.

Astronomy, though, would require Mathematics AND Astrology (as there is no third tech).

I like the tech tree as it is now.

Oh, that's not how I saw it. In the vanilla game, arrows are optionals(if more than one) and the icons beside the names are the required ones.

So, Burial Grounds would require Masonry AND Dynasticism? In that case, maybe removing the Mining req. for masonry, or else no one will have Burial Ground for a while (10 techs req.)

I'll use colored arrows to denote alternative paths and black ones for required path. That will make it clear.

 

[Karhgath]

Updated with my views on the required/altern paths. Thamis, correct me if it differs from your vision.

Also, I think it's missing a few (2-3) techs in the classical/imperial age. Any ideas?

 

[thamis]

Looks good now.

This way, Burial Grounds would require Masonry AND Dynasticism (that's 5 techs). Monarchy, though, would require Urbanization AND [Priesthood OR Monotheism].

Republic should have City States as main requirement.

More techs:
Medicine -> Sanitation (would allow a health building)
Construction -> Irrigation (would allow farm spread away from water)
City States -> Alliances (would allow pacts)
Civil Service -> Vice Royalty (would allow a wonder and a new civic)
Civil Service -> Ius Civile (or Civil Law or Roman Law, a civic, also the civic of free religion)

 

[thamis]

Monarchy requiring Monotheism seems a tad odd. Otherwise I think Karhgath's latest techtree looks pretty good.

I agree. I don't see any other useful way to bring Monarchy in, though. Divine Right certainly requires Monotheism, but Monarchy does not. To reduce confusion between Divine Right (a legal claim) and Monarchy (a de facto claim), maybe we should rename Monarchy to Despotism?

Actually, now I know.

Here we go:
Burial Grounds -> Despotism (end of tech branch)
Code of Laws AND Monotheism -> Divine Right -> (etc., as it is now)

Also:
City States (quite obviously) has to require Urbanization.
Divine Right and Despotism do not necessarily require Urbanization.

 

[Karhgath]

Updated. I moved city states down after currency. It was too far, and with Republic requiring City States, republic started to be a costy tech. It should, but not that much. Now it requires 3 classical techs, which seems right.

However, you can get to Empire and christianity a lot faster with the Divine Right path... maybe removing the optional req. and make Empire require only Republic and Mil. Training?

Or, change the req of Empire to Republic AND Divine Right? Mil. Training req is removed. We could then move Divine Right to classical. Maybe move Holy Book after Theology and before Christianity?

 

[Sword Dancer]

Compass: Not sure that was invented by then. Columbus didn't have a compass, he used this triangular thing that I forgot the name of.

Sextant ?

Given the date of his voyage, it is far more likely that he would have been using an astrolabe, which was a circular disc of metal with sliding sighting points along its circumferance to take the angle of the sun.

The astrolabe has been around since about 500 BC.

http://www.crichtonmiller.com/instruments.htm

 

[thamis]

You put Despotism in wrongly. It should require Burial Grounds, not Polytheism (poly makes no sense, while burial remotely does)

Vassalage is in no way classical. I don't think we should include it at all, even though the Goths had early forms of it.

City States should rather lead to Alliances.

Yea, remove the Divine Right path to Empire. The Caesars didn't legitimize their power with the gods. The first Emperor to do that was the first king of the Goths.

 

[Karhgath]

New updated tech tree (new url)

I played a bit with the tree. Now, there is a peaceful(republic) and military(Alliances) path to Empire. The peaceful path is a bit shorter.

So, in the end, there are 3 paths to Christianity: Military, Government, Religious. The former is longer, the last 2 are equally fast.

Let me know what you think.

 

[thamis]

Ok, I love the tech tree. Awesome.

Once I got my nukes-essay done, I'll start implementing it (unless someone else volunteers to do it).

 

[Zuul]

So no road building at all until the end? Or some simpler road in the beginging and a more advanced later on (highway/stone paved road instead of railroad)?

 

[Karhgath]

I think that's the idea, yeah

 

[Zuul]

Which of them? Only one kind of road-near the end? Or first some simple and then some more advanced?

 

[thamis]

No, of course we mean the road with extra movement at the end. The default road comes with The Wheel.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Couple oddities: You can't chose a random civ, and the 'pedia and main menu buttons don't work.


Also, shouldn't the adjective for Kolchis be Kolchian with an 'i' rather than Kolchean?

 

[onedreamer]

hmm, I think Civ3 had it right with Writing coming after Alphabet and not the other way around... unless with Writing we intend hyeroglyphs (sp ?).
Another thing, Fishing is 4 techs away from the start. I'm not sure it's a very good idea.

 

[Breunor]

The kings were of Chaldaean descent, but they achieved power by convincing the traditional (Akkadian-speaking or at least Akkadian-writing) élites of the Babylonian cities to chose them over the Assyrians, used Akkadian for official inscriptions, and called their kingdom "Sumer and Akkad". I think there's about as much continuity one can ask for over the relevant times.

Oh, and Nabopolassar certainly was more of a Babylonian than Sargon II was!

Now, if Thamis prefers, I can certainly dig up hero-names from the Amorite and Kassite periods too.

Ah, good point Last! I always viewed them as 'distinct' civilizations but I may have been pig-headed!

Yaah, I usually view that you have the Amorites up until their destruction by the Hittities in the 16th century (1595 BC), then the Kassites for about 400 years, and the Chaldeans in about the 7th century. I usually think of the Kassites as differnt, and they made Babylon into a 'world power' as oppsoed to a collection of city-states.

If you think they can be thought of as the 'same' civilzation I'll defer to you.

If we buy that the Amorites, Kassite, and Chaldean Babylonians ar ethe same, I would go for Nabopolassar was the hero.

I guess I'm in the camp that I'd prefer Assyria of the 2. I think more people have heard of Bablyon than Assyria, but in terms of importance, I'll go with Assyria.

Breunor

 

[Breunor]

Original Post:

Heroes (not implemented yet)
- Babylon: Sargon II (Archer)
- Gaul - Brennus (Gallic Swordsman)
- Mycenae - Achilles (Phalanx)
- Rome - Scipio (Legionary)
- Scythia - gotta check my Herodotus (Horse Archer, of course) ... Herakles was sugested...
- Etruria - Thefarie Velianas (Swordsman)
- Egypt - Ramses II (War Chariot)
- Iberian Tribes - Indibil (Slinger)
- Germanic Tribes - hmm... easy to find one (Berserk)
- Carthage - Hannibal (War Elephant)
- Lydia - gotta check my Herodotus (Light Cavalry)
- Phoenicia - ? (Phoenician Trireme)
- Getae - Zalmoxis (Falxman)
- Persia - Xerxes (Immortal)
- Medes - Cyaxares (Searman)
- Britons - Boudicca (Axeman)
- Kolchis - Artag (Bronze Swordsman)
- Macedonia - Alexander (Heavy Cavalry) - King will be Philip II
- Illyria - Glaucius or Bardylis (?)
- Nubia - Heru (?)
- Berber - Antaios (Archer)
- Goths - Theoderich (Huskarl)

My opionated choices:

Babylon -- As others have said, I don't like Sargon, since he was Assyrian. Nabopolassar if you count the Chaldeans (see post above).

Gaul -- Brennus is good

Mycenae -- Achilles is fine if you want mythology. I'd give a slight preference for Heracles for a Pelopennesain hero, many historical figures to choose from (Themistocles, Pericles?)

Rome -- Scipio is good, lots of choices

Scythia -- I'm not sure whom you are using as the 'main' leader. Can use Partatus, or Madyes. Heracles is a complex choice, as ancient myths wind in and out of each others.

Huns -- I assume Attilla is the overall leader, can try Ruga or Kama

Egypt -- The best military leader Egypt ever ahd probably was Thutmosis III.
Not sure whom the overall leader is (Hatshepsut was his father's wife but not his mother). Ramses II was probably overrated but not a bad pick if Thutmosis is the 'overall' leader. Amenhotep II was a great ruler!

Iberia -- It looks like you are in better hands here than anything I can add!

Germans -- If you are going to make the Goths a seperate faction, both Theodoric and Alaric should be Goths. For mythology it should be Sigurd or Sigfried (Norse of Gerrman). For real life there are a lot of choices. If you count Franks, Clovis is a good pick. Gaiseric the Vandal may have been the most successful German leader. Not sure who your 'overall' leader is?

Carthage-- I assume Hannibul (Barca) isn't the overall leader? As a general, he is tough to beat!!

Lydia -- I assume Croesus is the ovearll leader? Maybe Gyges, who made them into a military power.

Phoenecia -- If Hiram is the overll leader, maybe Abibel of Tyre as the hero. There are a LOT of great Phoenician scientists (Thales of Miletus, Pythagoras).

Getae -- Zalmoxis is fine if you use mythology (more of a god, though). Burebista was a famous king. If he is the overall king, Dromihete is a good choice, who defeated Lysimmachus.

Persia -- Hmm, not much of a Xerxes fan, he LOST afterall! If Cyrus is the overall king, I'd go with Darius the First. He lost also (Marathon campaign) but was a tremendous military leader.

If you want a 'hero' as oppsoed to a king, its tough to beat Zopyrus. According to Herodotus, when Darius I tried to take the walls of Babylon, Zopyrus cut off his nose and ears, pretended to be an escaped slave beaten by Darius. Babylon gave him control of some of the army, and there was an elaborate plan that the Persians would run away. Of course, he eventually betrays the city to the Persians.

Media -- Cyaxeres was their greatest king. Who is the overall leadser (Dioces?)

Britons -- Well, there are more capable ones than Boudiccea, but she is a good choice

Kolchis -- are we looking at the later period (Artag), or ancient Kolchis, which is ethnically probably Georgians. Artag would be more associated with Easstern Iberia. Maybe have Armenia (Urartu) if we want an ancient presence, but are they too close to Assyria/Babylon?

Macedon -- Hard to argue with Alexander!

Illyria -- Bardyllis is a good choice (he's not the overall leader?) Glaucius is also good, who reformed an Illyrian kingdom against the Diodachi.

Nubia -- ??

Berbers -- ??? (Antaeus I would say is Libyan. If you want to include Libyans, we have Shoshenk who conquered Egypt (is he the overall leader?)

Goths -- Theodoric is good.

Oh, I missed the Etruscans. Lars Porsenna maybe, Tarquin the Great?


Anyway, just my $.02

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Karhgath]

hmm, I think Civ3 had it right with Writing coming after Alphabet and not the other way around... unless with Writing we intend hyeroglyphs (sp ?).
Another thing, Fishing is 4 techs away from the start. I'm not sure it's a very good idea.

Well, I think the Civ series always had it wrong... how can you develop an alphabet if you can't write it? You first have to develop writing, to associate ideas with symbols, and afterward you can start to develop a structure, the alphabet.


@Breunor

I'm with yout and I believe Assyria had a much bigger impact than Babylon in the long run, simply because they were effective and organized, developping the framework of many advances(irrigations, iron working, warfare tactics, etc.)

And beside, while babylonians have been my favorite civ since Civ1, I still like Assyria more. They are cooler =)