"The Bad Sequel": Sullla's Analysis of Civ5

As i see it the 1up problem comes from the bad ai and the low production.

After all when you take out an AIs first wave of units in the standing army you can just steamroll over the entire ai no matter how big as it will not be able to produce new units to defend itself in a rate that matters so they come after you 1 or 2 units at a time.

Same goes when attacked if i lose my army i can not build a new one in time to defend myself even after some time say after the ai have taken 2 cities.
Yes you can rush buy several units with gold but who sits on that kind of cash.

Not so in civ 4 higher production+chopping+draft+rushbuy so many ways to build up new army fast if you lost your army or skimped on it and kept it to low:)

To me civ 5 is all about war ,winning a cultural in mp yeah right, space race hmm hard, WAR is the only sane option in this game.

And yes im back in civ 4 +bts+batmod with blue marble gfx. not that im a god player by any means i dont play that seriously, but civ 5 is not even fun to me.
 
I don't think the economics favor the defender anywhere near as strongly as you suggest, as evidenced by attacking being a rather succesful strategy in Civ IV, even against strong players who can defend well.

Si vis pacem, para bellum - if you wish for peace, prepare for war. And also "attack is the best form of defence".

That's why no peaceful civilization is going to survive if it doesn't have its own army to defend its territory and attack other civs when the need arises. War is an important part of strategy and empire-building, and nobody can neglect that. Stablishing combat modifiers for defenders in every type of terrain (despite of desert terrain titles) on CivIV was surely done to prevent peaceful civilizations from being utterly defetead by a warmonger one, but History has proven that is war that makes empires, not flower seeding.

Come on, the fastest way to get power is by harassing others for the goods they possess themselves, not by producing them yourself. War is, and will always be, the fastest way to get power, as long as you can pay the social and economic costs for waging war.

In real life, USA never stablished itself as a global power by sticking to "peace and love" and purely economic decisions. It's a global power because it has a large industry which supplies half the world with things they produce alone, it invests on research and technological development, but it also invests heavily on the quality of its army. That's equally true for China, Russia, England, Macedonia, Rome, Babylon, Persia and any other empire which has risen across History.

Having a small army because you invested heavily on research and cultural development woudn't prevent anyone from conquering your sitting duck "highly cultural" cities, because they're an easy target and the benefits from waging war against a pacifist and poor-defended civilization obviously far surpass the costs of war itself. That's why a peaceful civilization must have a well-sized army, accordingly to the size of the territory it needs to defend.

Being rich but peaceful doesn't make you less vulnerable to thieves. Having high walls and bloody hounds do.

In particular, pillaging and camping out on key tiles can effectively negate large portions of a defensive advantage as units will be forced to come out and attack if you want to regain access to important economic resources/squares. For instance, if you effectively defend a city, an opportunistic thrust at a key strategic resource can actually turn the tables, by pillaging and camping a moderate stack. I find the most common error people make in Civ IV combat is being too aggressive at going for well defended targets like cities when its actually rather easy to get winning positions by opportunistically taking what the enemy gives you.

Isn't being able to lay waste to improvements a realistic way of waging war? It has been done by all nations all across History. When medieval sieges on a castle took place in the past, the attacking army would poison the water supplying the attacked fortress, put crops on fire and such to either get the defender to surrender, or to defeat the defender without having to enter a bloodbathing battle.

When the Russian army retreated from outer borders when German striked in WWII, they burnt to the ground most of the cities left behind, which prevented Germany from benefiting from the newly-acquired territories. Isn't that strategy?

If you were the president of a nation and an invader started to lay waste to your towns, economic buildings and such, entrenching itself in the territory it has occupied, would you not send your army to get them back to Hell, even if you suffered from strategical disadvantages by being the attacking army? Isn't it realistic?

So, I can't see people's point when they state that CivIV isn't realistic. It could have a tactical map for resolving battles (as Space Empires V has), but although it wasn't implemented (unfortunately), it doesn't make the game less realistic, not to the point of not being worth playing it.

Finally, warmonger players always get upper hands in every empire-building games, not just in CivIV. Sitting behind a wall won't prevent you from being bombarded, nor it will prevent others from bombarding you. Attacking them from behind, cutting their supply lines or breaking inside your attacker's territory with a handful of fast units, laying waste to the now poorly defended territory (now that his units stand inside your country) will prevent defeat and force the attacker to reconsider the need of the war he has just declared on you.
 
Just pointing out again that "stacks of doom" are not caused by the ability to actually stack x or unlimited units in a tile. No stacking of course makes a stack of doom impossible but stacking in no way has to lead to stacks of doom, and all the other underlying problems that really should have been fixed that caused the perceived poor gameplay, were not fixed in civ5.
 
Civilization 5 is the board game of the Civilization franchise. You could easily imagine small plastic toy soldiers on a large map moving about.

It's a shame Firaxis didn't realize board games are played in groups with other friends. Civ5's strength would lie within multiplayer, which has been completely neglected. This saddens me.
 
Civilization 5 is the board game of the Civilization franchise. You could easily imagine small plastic toy soldiers on a large map moving about.

It's a shame Firaxis didn't realize board games are played in groups with other friends. Civ5's strength would lie within multiplayer, which has been completely neglected. This saddens me.

Although I've never played Civilization 5, I can imagine how disappointing it is to the fanbase which have loved the previous four games of the serie.

From what I've read across the foruns, the game lacks strategic depth, and that is due, IMHO, to a main reason: when a human duels against the computer with few variables to consider (such as hapiness, food and such), the AI must be extremely good to overcome the power of the human mind and strategy.

See, the problem isn't just related to having fewer variables to consider (no religion, no espionage...) but having an AI which seems incapable of handling those fewer variables in a challenging way. When faced with many variables to consider (religion, tech branches, espionage, different units) the human mind tends to make more mistakes, and therefore the game becomes harder to play, because it involves carefull planning, even against a mild AI (which knows everything about the game and acts in mathematical ways).

But, if the AI can't handle itself in the game when it has fewer variables to consider, it is not a challenging opponent, and human players would only find some solace if they were able to fight each other in MP, but this feature seems to be buggy till this very day, even some months after the game release.

Now, how are players supposed to be interested in a game that lost complexity and, at the same time, didn't get a more challenging AI or MP features?
 
Si vis pacem, para bellum - if you wish for peace, prepare for war. And also "attack is the best form of defence".

That's why no peaceful civilization is going to survive if it doesn't have its own army to defend its territory and attack other civs when the need arises. War is an important part of strategy and empire-building, and nobody can neglect that. Stablishing combat modifiers for defenders in every type of terrain (despite of desert terrain titles) on CivIV was surely done to prevent peaceful civilizations from being utterly defetead by a warmonger one, but History has proven that is war that makes empires, not flower seeding.

Come on, the fastest way to get power is by harassing others for the goods they possess themselves, not by producing them yourself. War is, and will always be, the fastest way to get power, as long as you can pay the social and economic costs for waging war.

In real life, USA never stablished itself as a global power by sticking to "peace and love" and purely economic decisions. It's a global power because it has a large industry which supplies half the world with things they produce alone, it invests on research and technological development, but it also invests heavily on the quality of its army. That's equally true for China, Russia, England, Macedonia, Rome, Babylon, Persia and any other empire which has risen across History.

Having a small army because you invested heavily on research and cultural development woudn't prevent anyone from conquering your sitting duck "highly cultural" cities, because they're an easy target and the benefits from waging war against a pacifist and poor-defended civilization obviously far surpass the costs of war itself. That's why a peaceful civilization must have a well-sized army, accordingly to the size of the territory it needs to defend.

Being rich but peaceful doesn't make you less vulnerable to thieves. Having high walls and bloody hounds do.



Isn't being able to lay waste to improvements a realistic way of waging war? It has been done by all nations all across History. When medieval sieges on a castle took place in the past, the attacking army would poison the water supplying the attacked fortress, put crops on fire and such to either get the defender to surrender, or to defeat the defender without having to enter a bloodbathing battle.

When the Russian army retreated from outer borders when German striked in WWII, they burnt to the ground most of the cities left behind, which prevented Germany from benefiting from the newly-acquired territories. Isn't that strategy?

If you were the president of a nation and an invader started to lay waste to your towns, economic buildings and such, entrenching itself in the territory it has occupied, would you not send your army to get them back to Hell, even if you suffered from strategical disadvantages by being the attacking army? Isn't it realistic?

So, I can't see people's point when they state that CivIV isn't realistic. It could have a tactical map for resolving battles (as Space Empires V has), but although it wasn't implemented (unfortunately), it doesn't make the game less realistic, not to the point of not being worth playing it.

Finally, warmonger players always get upper hands in every empire-building games, not just in CivIV. Sitting behind a wall won't prevent you from being bombarded, nor it will prevent others from bombarding you. Attacking them from behind, cutting their supply lines or breaking inside your attacker's territory with a handful of fast units, laying waste to the now poorly defended territory (now that his units stand inside your country) will prevent defeat and force the attacker to reconsider the need of the war he has just declared on you.

You write as if I was disagreeing with these points. I'm not, I think attacking is far and away the best strategy in Civ. I agree with defenders getting bonuses, historically they did, that's why you pillage the countryside and starve them out rather than take the city where they are strongest.

Civ5 practically destroys this notion as the shooting distance of a city is 2/3rd's of its harvest distance. In reality most siege weapons had a range of below 1km. But cities often relied on harvests from the countryside even up to 100km away. So instead of the defender being forced to engage the attacker or risk losing access to all its prime squares and having its countryside burnt and plundered, the defender gets to fire at the attacker who is 90km away with its arrows. 1UPT is entirely destroyed by scale, the fact is for the tactical level to function it needs tiles whos longest axis is about 250m, and cities that can harvest up to 400 tiles away. That obviously breaks the game both because of the sheer number of tiles needed, and the number of tiles available to a city.
I will not buy another city game where cities can fire on every tile they can harvest as I think it destroys the mechanics of combat entirely.
 
You write as if I was disagreeing with these points. I'm not, I think attacking is far and away the best strategy in Civ. I agree with defenders getting bonuses, historically they did, that's why you pillage the countryside and starve them out rather than take the city where they are strongest.

Sorry, I've realised that just now. I misunderstood what you were saying, and I sincerely apologize for that.

Civ5 practically destroys this notion as the shooting distance of a city is 2/3rd's of its harvest distance. In reality most siege weapons had a range of below 1km. But cities often relied on harvests from the countryside even up to 100km away. So instead of the defender being forced to engage the attacker or risk losing access to all its prime squares and having its countryside burnt and plundered, the defender gets to fire at the attacker who is 90km away with its arrows. 1UPT is entirely destroyed by scale, the fact is for the tactical level to function it needs tiles whos longest axis is about 250m, and cities that can harvest up to 400 tiles away. That obviously breaks the game both because of the sheer number of tiles needed, and the number of tiles available to a city.
I will not buy another city game where cities can fire on every tile they can harvest as I think it destroys the mechanics of combat entirely.

Yeah, it seems they've got that pretty messed up.

I don't have the game - and I believe I'll never will, I refuse to rely on Steam or anything else besides my own computer to play a game I've bought - but tell me: Can cities fire on all tiles inside their defense range in the same turn? If they can, then THAT is really bad design, because as you can't stack anything in Civ5, there isn't any strategy on city conquest, just rush your soldiers in before they get pummeled by the city's active defenses.
 
I don't have the game - and I believe I'll never will, I refuse to rely on Steam or anything else besides my own computer to play a game I've bought - but tell me: Can cities fire on all tiles inside their defense range in the same turn? If they can, then THAT is really bad design, because as you can't stack anything in Civ5, there isn't any strategy on city conquest, just rush your soldiers in before they get pummeled by the city's active defenses.

No cities get just one attack per turn.
 
See, the problem isn't just related to having fewer variables to consider (no religion, no espionage...) but having an AI which seems incapable of handling those fewer variables in a challenging way.

If there are fewer variables it actually should get easier for an AI, not more complex.

I am not saying the AI is great, but fewer variables is not the cause.
 
If there are fewer variables it actually should get easier for an AI, not more complex.

I am not saying the AI is great, but fewer variables is not the cause.

That was what I just said. The problem isn't related to having fewer variables, but having fewer of them and, at the same time, an AI which cannot handle itself. Take that same AI and drop it in Civ4 with RoM, RevDCM, AND or C2C mods enabled and the gameplay will be more challenging, not because of the AI itself, but due to the added complexity, which makes human players decisions more crucial and complicated to make.

The fewer the variables, the stronger the AI must be to beat a human player, because the fewer variables a human has to consider, the easier it is for him to plan his strategy ahead of time. And what it seems they haven't achieved with Civilization 5 was exactly that much needed stronger AI.
 
If I read Sulla's story, and part of the discussion here (which has become too long to read completely I'm afraid), isn't it time that somebody makes a No-1UPT mod? I understand that it kinda ruins a large part of the game concept, but what if the AI suddenly starts working and some balancing makes it a nicely playable game with a better engine and nicer graphics than Civ4 (and also Steam I'm affraid... oh well...)

Ummm, try Kael's Legion mod. Though, quite frankly, you may as well just play Civ4 in that case. I still believe that 1upt can work-they just didn't implement it properly!

Aussie.
 
For me 1upt was the main reason I was not interested in CIV5 - I cannot see any way how it can be used properly.

A limit to the amount of units per tile would be more logical, and with perhaps techs to increase the limit.

:)
 
Anything to get rid of the road spaghetti and the Stack of Doom. Anyay, why are you guys still complaining abut Civ V? Why aren't you playing Civ IV or engaging in something related to the famous Real Life (TM)?
 
Öjevind Lång;10181685 said:
Anything to get rid of the road spaghetti and the Stack of Doom. Anyay, why are you guys still complaining abut Civ V? Why aren't you playing Civ IV or engaging in something related to the famous Real Life (TM)?

Anything? Like doing away with combat and roads altogether?
 
Öjevind Lång;10181685 said:
Anything to get rid of the road spaghetti and the Stack of Doom. Anyay, why are you guys still complaining abut Civ V? Why aren't you playing Civ IV or engaging in something related to the famous Real Life (TM)?

thats really what this comes down to. there are people that wanted civ5 - a new take on the franchise (for good or bad i guess). Then there are those that wanted another expansion to Civ4, basically BTS with updated graphics and parts of their favorite mods added to it.
 
thats really what this comes down to. there are people that wanted civ5 - a new take on the franchise (for good or bad i guess). Then there are those that wanted another expansion to Civ4, basically BTS with updated graphics and parts of their favorite mods added to it.

I wanted Civ5 but I'm not going to buy it just because it's Civ5. It has to be a game with at least the same level of depth and interest as Civ4, and by all accounts, it isn't.
 
It should have been a beefed up CIV2, with all the expanded GFX and thrills of the 21st century!
 
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