The barbarians are easier in FfH!

[Chandrasekhar]

So, the other day, I went back and played a game of vanilla Civ, with raging barbarians on (as they are when I play FfH). Imagine my surprise when beating the barbs turned out to be more difficult in vanilla Civ than in FfH! Given that this world is meant to be a dangerous one where Civs can be swallowed up in the blink of an eye, I think this should be looked in to. The following are the causes that I've identified for the easier barbarian difficulty of FfH.

1) Promotions! In FfH, you get twice as much experience per battle, and you get to buy promotions that are worth twice as much as their vanilla counterparts. Combine that with early +xp civics, and you're seeing 80, 90% odds battles where in vanilla Civ you'd be fighting straight 50's and 60's. Then, combine that with specific anti-orcish promotions that you can get after combat I, and it really stops being a challenge.

2) Upgrades! In vanilla Civ, each player needed about 10 to 15 turns to research to get the second tier unit. This means that axemen show up much, much earlier. You need to invest in military infrastructure early, or you're going to get swarmed. Not so in FfH. I've gone whole games without seeing a single barbarian axeman.

3) Expansion! The easier the barbs are, the easier it is to expand. The easier it is to expand, the easier the barbs are. I'll admit that FfH animals can limit expansion quite a bit, but hunters render them obsolete. This should clear itself up somewhat if the above two points are addressed, but it still should be considered.

So, what to do about these issues? Here's my opinion on the subject: for point one, I'm not so sure. I don't like the idea of weakening promotions, but just upping the number of barbarians will simply make things easier (as you'll get an xp or two from each doomed battle). Maybe some barbarians could spawn with a level or two as the games goes on. On number two, well, I've been advocating a tech tree revamp for awhile now. I don't see any alternative. About number three, I'd really like to see more lizardmen staying outside your cities, but picking off anyone that ventures outside. You'd have to guard your workers after the lizardmen show up, which I think is perfectally fine.

So, let the discussion begin.

 

[Keldan]

I disagree with you, I think barbarians are enough difficult as it.

There are a lot of barbarian spawns, and I often lost my first and unique city because lizardmen or squeletons attacked my poor warriors. And I don't speak about Orthus who can raze an entire empire without sweat...
Ok, the promotions give a good power-up to the units, but advanced unit (like axeman or archer) need a building to be trained.

I think barbarians are more difficult in FfH than in the large mojority of the other mods, including the basic version, especially if you play at epic or marathon speed.

 

[Zuul]

I would love to have another option in the start to have even more raging barbarians .

 

[Sureshot]

more barbarian heroes would be best i think, more challenge that way (especially since they gain xp), and theyre tons of fun.

a large behemoth monster (like 20 strength but animal classed so doesnt general enter borders), a mounted hero, typhoid mary as a barb with a summon rat ability would be cool, generally a summoner barb hero would be interesting.

having trapped animals/giants (i.e. when they get stuck in cultural borders) go into some berserk mode would be nice too, so they rampage inside borders when they get trapped (also then it wouldnt be obvious which are barb animals, since sometimes animals would go berserk inside cultural borders too).


might be cool to make werewolves as hidden nationality and capturaeble, so barbs are likely to get them and begin turning it on players too.

also, if more animals spawned later in the game as well

 

[Silverkiss]

You could have some late-game "abberrations", like experiments, to spawn as animals.

 

[Bad Player]

Kael once said he would be ok with 25% of civs dying early on to the barbs - well I would like to see this happen! Unnerf the barbs!

 

[loki1232]

Yeah i think that typhoid mary should be a barb hero.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Here's what I'm worried about when it comes to barbarian heroes: they're almost completely local. If you're on one continent, and Orthus spawns on the other, he might as well not exist. Upping the number of heroes will make it more likely that you'll have to deal with one, but I'd be much more interested in making barbarians tougher across the board.

 

[Sureshot]

ya, im not a fan of the AI bonuses versus barbs, they level up too easily and i always end up having to deal with their uber scouts that steal workers out of nowhere.

about the localized issue, i think just having more heroes deals with that and keeps the eventfulness of them (its always an interesting historical event when orthus pops up near ya). other continents technically should be covered by the dirge, if it didnt just hold up in the first coastal barb city.

id really like a behemoth type barb hero, something pretty much indestructible early in the game that wont enter cultural borders of its own will, to keep atleast some danger once hunters come into the picture. but the exploit of trapping animal AI'ed units needs to be addressed. a nice berserk promotion (like what happens when you build natures revolt) should happen anytime an animal classed unit gets stuck in cultural borders (seems like all the mechanics for it already exist), because currently you can just sneak around the animals to fill up all the space with your borders and then theyre stuck and unable to do anything.

 

[seZereth]

yea, some more barb heros would mean some more heros to design... bring em on

 

[Bad Player]

ya, im not a fan of the AI bonuses versus barbs, they level up too easily and i always end up having to deal with their uber scouts that steal workers out of nowhere.

I didn't know they got a combat? bonus! If this was removed it would make more civs die early on which would be great fun!

 

[Xuenay]

id really like a behemoth type barb hero, something pretty much indestructible early in the game that wont enter cultural borders of its own will, to keep atleast some danger once hunters come into the picture.

I like that idea, though if it doesn't enter your cultural borders you can always just build around it and eventually have it trapped. Maybe give it a rather high move to help avoid that.

 

[Sureshot]

I like that idea, though if it doesn't enter your cultural borders you can always just build around it and eventually have it trapped. Maybe give it a rather high move to help avoid that.

ya, thats why i also mentioned the idea of animal berserk, basically letting an animal classed unit travel through borders (like what happens with Natures Revolt) if they get stuck in borders (right now thats an annoying exploit).

 

[Sureshot]

so far the extra barb heroes i can think of are:
Raider King - strength 4, movement 4, basically a rogue stronger hippus raider hero for barbs, coming around same time as Orthus
Typhoid Mary - can summon plague carrier rats, coming midgame
Behemoth - 20 strength animal, maybe 2 movement, coming around the same time as acheron
Lich King - barb summoner hero that starts with death 1 (maybe also 2 and 3?), with about 7 strength, 1 movement, coming around the time of acheron


might be neat to make rituals/wonders people can build to give the barbs those heroes instead of times. so maybe you build a necromantic wonder that gives you a (few?) free Death mana(s), but unleashes the Lich King on the world (who may very well start near you and attack you).
the reason this might be a good delivery method for the barb heroes would be that then you dont need to do yearly checks to see if its time to create those heroes (kael mentioned that as causing turn slow downage)

on that vein, some existing wonders could be tied to barb hero creation, or new wonders for the current barb heroes.. like the great lighthouse could cause the sailors dirge to appear (tho the whole city sitting issue would need to be dealt with since by the time someone builds the great lighthouse thered be barb cities and the dirge would never see use).

 

[Silverkiss]

I like the idea of rituals that give you something but unleash a monster on the world... You could give better bonuses the stronger the monster is

 

[Zuul]

Should add my exhotic animal mod to this mod.

 

[Sureshot]

ya more animals would make it interesting, tho more so if they could spawn later on as well (i think they only spawn in the first few turns?)

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I like the idea of starting barbs out with some experience. What would be a good catalyst for this, though? 1 pt. per barb city? 1 pt per player? 1-15 random xp? 1 pt per 5 turns?

 

[Sureshot]

could make them actively fight barb animals (though having animals spawn more would be necessary), then it would level up the animals and barbs

 

[vyapti]

I like the idea of starting barbs out with some experience. What would be a good catalyst for this, though? 1 pt. per barb city? 1 pt per player? 1-15 random xp? 1 pt per 5 turns?

I like this idea. Another would be to give Barbs a bonus against players.