Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
Why don't you just make 10 stronger and make 10 be the strength and make that a little stronger?
Because I am XD
The barbarians are easier in FfH!
- Thread starter Chandrasekhar
- Start date
Because I am XD
Unser Giftzwerg
UgLe Game Promoter
Yeah the barbarians are an issue only until one of your Warriors stars up a couple times. Combat+AntiOrc and after that you have a Spearman killer. After that it's a game of checkers for awhile as you 'king' a couple-few more Warriors. After that the Ragers are just leveling-up devices for awhile. I've siad it several times and I'll say it again. The easiest, biggest bang-for-the-buck boost to the barbs would be to give them back the 1 STR 2 MOVE Scout unit.
I think your point #2 is a key. Most of what has been suggested strikes me as more chrome. Until the underlying structure is adjusted, more heroes pretty much just mean bigger technicolor splats on the windshield. Last time Orthus showed u in my neightborhood, he died to my 2nd attacking warrior. Thanks for the Axe.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
You know, it strikes me that a bigger barb challenge would be very easy to add in one simple step anyone can do with the editor.
Orc Promotion gives +20% str.
CoE would get a bit of a boost too, but I could live with that.
Orc Promotion gives +20% str.
CoE would get a bit of a boost too, but I could live with that.
Unser Giftzwerg
UgLe Game Promoter
But then you'd just promote up AntiMelee I first, then its back to 'checkers'. It wouldn't work against all Barb, but it would against the units that matter in the early early going: Orc Spearmen.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
IT wouldn't matter what the defenders promoted; the orcs will still have +20% str. If that doesn't matter, you can make it 25 or 30.
Basically giving the barbs a free promotion. They can't help but win more often.
GeeJo
Flibbertigibbet
I believe Unser thought that you were referring to the anti-orc promotion (switching it from 40% to 20%), not a +20% promotion given to the orcs themselves.
Just so we're all talking on the same page, I should note that there are huge differences in the barbarian frequency and strength dependent on difficulty level:
Source:
Difficulty
At very low levels, the player gets some free wins against the barbarians (the combat odds don't matter for the first combat or so).
The frequency of barbarian land units varies by over ten-fold, dependent on difficulty level.
The frequency of barbarian water units varies by over three-fold, dependent on difficulty level.
The frequency of barbarian cities varies by over threefold, dependent on difficulty level.
The starting turn for both barbarian and barbarian city creation varies by 40 turns, dependent on difficulty level.
The barbarian city creation probability doubles, dependent on difficulty level.
Barbarians can be up to 40% weaker against the player, dependent on difficulty level.
The barbarian's bonus against the AI, while always negative, varies by 60%, dependent on difficulty level (this is the one of the most recent change to barbarians; the others were reducing the frequencies).
The number of default barbarian defenders (in a city) quadruples, depending on difficulty level.
Note that all of this information is stored in CIV4HandicapInfo.xml, so you can edit it if you can edit .xml.
Source:
Difficulty
At very low levels, the player gets some free wins against the barbarians (the combat odds don't matter for the first combat or so).
The frequency of barbarian land units varies by over ten-fold, dependent on difficulty level.
The frequency of barbarian water units varies by over three-fold, dependent on difficulty level.
The frequency of barbarian cities varies by over threefold, dependent on difficulty level.
The starting turn for both barbarian and barbarian city creation varies by 40 turns, dependent on difficulty level.
The barbarian city creation probability doubles, dependent on difficulty level.
Barbarians can be up to 40% weaker against the player, dependent on difficulty level.
The barbarian's bonus against the AI, while always negative, varies by 60%, dependent on difficulty level (this is the one of the most recent change to barbarians; the others were reducing the frequencies).
The number of default barbarian defenders (in a city) quadruples, depending on difficulty level.
Note that all of this information is stored in CIV4HandicapInfo.xml, so you can edit it if you can edit .xml.
Unser Giftzwerg
UgLe Game Promoter
Yep, you caught my mistake.
Well, +20% stronger Orcs would make it harder to win that first battle if you get bumrushed by nothing but Spearorcs. Goblins still would go splt. So 'checkers' would get pushed back to exp10 instead of exp5. It would have an effect. I doubt it'd dramaticaly affect stratey though. With the obvious exception of Clan of Embers players, who would be dancing.
Civkid1991
in shade of poison trees
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2006
- Messages
- 871
sorry wrong page
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
How about killing goblins and orc spearmen simply gives less XP?
Chandrasekhar
Determined
Hm... you know how experience in FfH is roughly doubled? Maybe experience gotten from fights with barbarians shouldn't be doubled. This would mean that you wouldn't get experience for 100% battles anymore, which I have no problem with.
Unser Giftzwerg
UgLe Game Promoter
Well, this seems like a pretty solid approach. The issue seems to be rooted in the easy experience gained from barbs. Of course all this does is delay somewhat that point when your warriors get that 5th or 10th experince point. After than the barbs are usually manageable.
Or perhaps ya just accept that barbs are there primarilly to provide easy exp and account for that in other areas of the design. If the tech tree gets reworked, the challenge posed by barbs could change dramatically.
cvlowe
King
Is the problem that the barbarians are easy? Or perhaps people need to notch up the difficulty level a bit if they want a challenge? Barbarians have never been a major problem for me- when the Sailor's Dirge does not pop up on my doorstep that is- in any games. But in my current game, I bumped the difficulty level up (maybe prince?? don't remember) and had to really change tactics to protect my territory from the increased numbers and quality of barbs attacking me.
Sureshot
Goddess
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2006
- Messages
- 3,771
i wouldnt say the barbs are easier, its just once you shift your game style to heavy military it becomes easier, though you still have to actively deal with them.
vanilla is much easier, there you don't even have to make military most of the time, just a token unit for the garrison happiness.
vanilla is much easier, there you don't even have to make military most of the time, just a token unit for the garrison happiness.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
Heavy military? Three warriors per city isn't heavy military. Especially not in the year 300.
And I'm not sure if you've played a vanilla raging barbs game recently, but it most certainly isn't easier. In FfH, you need probably three or so battles to get to 10 xp(average of just over 3 xp per battle is likely). With 10 xp, you can get double strength against those orc spearmen (Combat I, Shock I, Orc Slaying). In vanilla Civ, those same three battles might net you five xp if you're fairly lucky with your battles, for a total of +35% against barbarian warriors.
Combine that with the fact that axemen show up fairly early in vanilla Civ, which itself prevents you from relying on warrior armies (axemen are effectively strength 7.5 against warriors), and it's pretty well certain that the barbarians are much easier in FfH.
I think handling the barbs, even the raging barbs, at any level in FFH is not that difficult as long as you are willing to play a turtle-up/defense type game.
You will win the game if you can outlast the poor AI civs' defense as they get mowed down by the barbs due to inadequate defenders in their cities.
You did make a good point on one of the four 'events' which I think can make your 'Barb Game' more difficult.
1. Sailor's Dirge - I really don't have any experience with that.
2. Orthus - easy to kill, especially if he visits you first, as long as you have a couple of Warriors with promotions. It is great to get the Axe ASAP.
3. Acheron, the Red Dragon - this has been a bit more problematic for me in my last few games. As Acheron appears rather early, it is very difficult to take him down. If he sets up shop in a city close to you, you will have problems as it is difficult for you to expand in that direction and also it seems like you get beaucoup barbs visiting your territory. My strategy is to quickly take out any barb cities that pop up near my CIV if I can (if I am not being swarmed), because IMO if a barb city appears just outside your boundaries in the early game there is a 100% chance Acheron will soon appear. To validate this, I went out and took down three barb cities close to my civ. No Acheron. However, sure as shootin' when I couldn't get to one city to destroy it in time, Acheron showed up!
4. Having 2 or more AI civs with the BAR trait. One is not a problem as you can let that civ exceed the 50% rule and the barbs will take him out. However, with two you have a problem as they will tend to stay close to each other in score - the 50% rule will not go into effect, even if you are far back in third place from these two in total points. So, you have to venture out and conquer one of these civs at least. Easier said than done as you need to have defenders from the barbs too. I am in a game now that has Hyborem and Jonas and they are within 50 pts of each other and 150 pts ahead of me. No 50% rule possibility.
cvlowe
King
1. I have had it show up on me in 3 games. One str 3 skeleton would do some damage, but 3 can't be overcome that early.
2. my current game he appeared who knows where- just not near me. I saw the event his axe changed hands at least 8 times, then while roaming around randomly my Curly squashed a barb goblin and I got the axe
3. Bambur with 100 exp or Baron with 80ish wins every time for me. My problem is usually there is a stack of AI troops camped out somewhere nearby so I have to be able to take out the dragon and the 7 or 8 orcs in one turn to get the city or an AI will steal it.
4. I have the opposite experience, Hyborem and the barbarians on one map ended up being the weakest militarily because none of their troops had battled to level up. So my smaller, veteran stack walked through both of their civs. I finally declared peace with Hyborem when he had one city left- on an island and me with no ships...
1. I have had it show up on me in 3 games. One str 3 skeleton would do some damage, but 3 can't be overcome that early.
2. my current game he appeared who knows where- just not near me. I saw the event his axe changed hands at least 8 times, then while roaming around randomly my Curly squashed a barb goblin and I got the axe
3. Bambur with 100 exp or Baron with 80ish wins every time for me. My problem is usually there is a stack of AI troops camped out somewhere nearby so I have to be able to take out the dragon and the 7 or 8 orcs in one turn to get the city or an AI will steal it.
4. I have the opposite experience, Hyborem and the barbarians on one map ended up being the weakest militarily because none of their troops had battled to level up. So my smaller, veteran stack walked through both of their civs. I finally declared peace with Hyborem when he had one city left- on an island and me with no ships...
Some good points here.
Isn't it great when you can get Orthus' Axe by killed a goblin or orc spearman?
Yes, Acheron can be killed, but I don't think it is possible until mid-game at least. Having the Baron surely will not come until mid-game. I actually killed him with one of the Stooges with plenty of promotions. Anyway, until you can go take the Dragon and the city, it really hampers you in the game.
I agree that the civs with the BAR trait are patsies unless they have gotten XP in wars with other civs. However, the problem is getting to them. You have to make sure your civ is completely defended against the raging barbs who are still coming at you. This means a second army to go out hunting for the other civs. Then, the barbs can be a nuisance as you make your way to them.
One thing that helps, and I thought it was supposed to be changed, but evidentally wasn't - the barbs will not pass through the territory of the AI civs with the BAR trait. You can use this as a shield to protect part of your civ while you defend the rest and get your army ready. Of course, if you declare war on your 'shield' and take them out, you open the doors for the barbs.
It's too bad you can't play FFH as a barb.
With the recent version you could mount a devastating mid-game strategy using Lizardman Assassins.
Now that they have the Marksman promotion, all you have to do is assemble a small stack of, say, a couple of cannon fodder units like Lizardman Rangers, Orc Axemen or Goblin Chariots, and match them up with 2-3 Assassins.
You could attack the big boys (heroes, tier 4 units) with the fodder and finish them off with the Marksman Assassins who go for the weak units.
This strategy would be difficult for the human player, but, the AI can, and does, spawn billions and billions of Lizardman Assassins in mid-game. You really have to take them out before they get to your weak units. If they had other units coordinating with their attacks...
Thank goodness the barb AI is not smart enough to develop this strategy on the usage of Assassins yet on its own!
With the recent version you could mount a devastating mid-game strategy using Lizardman Assassins.
Now that they have the Marksman promotion, all you have to do is assemble a small stack of, say, a couple of cannon fodder units like Lizardman Rangers, Orc Axemen or Goblin Chariots, and match them up with 2-3 Assassins.
You could attack the big boys (heroes, tier 4 units) with the fodder and finish them off with the Marksman Assassins who go for the weak units.
This strategy would be difficult for the human player, but, the AI can, and does, spawn billions and billions of Lizardman Assassins in mid-game. You really have to take them out before they get to your weak units. If they had other units coordinating with their attacks...
Thank goodness the barb AI is not smart enough to develop this strategy on the usage of Assassins yet on its own!
