The benefits of avoiding bronze working

[RagingHordes]

Here, cheers!

 

[Doshin]

@Jastrow

Spoiler :

Spoilered because it's kinda off-topic.

When someone refers to an isolated start, I understand it to be in the 'classical' sense outlined in r_rolo1 in his article 'You, Yourself and your shadow : Some lessons on isolated starts':

Definition of isolated start. Degrees of isolation​

A start can be said isolated when you have at least one tile of Ocean between the land mass where you’re standing and the one where your nearest neighbor is. Said this there can be various levels of isolation ( P.S some of the things below are version dependant ):

• Really isolated start: in the nearest point you have 3 ocean tiles between your land and the nearest civ. This is the classic isolated start, no contact or trades before Astro. You’re by yourself….
  
• Skin contact: there is a place between your land and other civs land with only 2 ocean tiles ( and 2 coastal, of course ) and your city got contact with a civ by cultural border contact. This is rare ( IIRC never happened in the LHC history ) and the results would vary a lot with the civ version… In BtS you will get espionage access to your neighbor and ability to trade techs, but no unit or trade route pass through the ocean ( and by consequence no religion spreading as well )
  
• Trade route available: you only have one tile of ocean separating you from the nearest civ. This means that you or your neighbor can control that tile culturally … this ( in BtS again … must check Vanilla and Warlords on this ) grants unit and trade route access ( and religion )to the civ that controls the ocean tile.

Why are this definitions important ? Because you can get situations where you can use the last item for a strong Trade route economy, for a early AP win or for a pre Astro invasion. Besides that , in the two last situations you can start tech trading and entering in the diplo game far earlier….. for good and for bad.

The 'really isolated start' would be the hardest by default, I think, and within this there are further shades of difficulty. A bunch of peaceful techer AIs will make the game much harder, whereas warmongers will make the game easier (unless one of them vassals another AI and has no remaining enemies, i.e. civs with which it is Annoyed, thereby making you a target.) Having small islands will make things easier, access to Stone or Marble OFC helps... so yeah. All of those games are hard, but some more so than others.

 

[Jastrow]

@Doshin

Spoiler :

To be honest, when I first refered to that BOTM, my reccollection what that we had contact before optics to ONLY Toku, in which case it would be pretty close to the above definitions.


Now, I agreee it was not isolated at all, but it does not really change my main point. Given how easily several of us won (my space win, for example, had HUGE margins on everything), the same map, modified to creat full isolation, would have yielded similar results in terms of # of wins.

The main thing I meant to emphasis is essentially the same that shakabrade made... Deity isolation is feared, and with good reason... But often with the wrong reason...

People often say it is unwinnable... More accurate however is that in many cases, you, as the player, have little influence on the result. Some maps are fairly easily winnable (for say, a competent immoratal level player), whereas others are nearly impossible.

The one from this tread is probably somewhere in the middle... It is a difficult start for sure, but at leat the AI appears to be nerfed, so that relatively late lib dates/victories/etc. are possible.

Simply put, the range of difficulty of Deity isolated, is very large.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

@Brennus.Quigley:
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. (unless we are talking about different levels)
No way can you wait until you actually bulb Feudalism to start a Construction war.

Thanks again for your thoughts. I am hypothesizing bulbing Feudalism almost immediately after researching Construction. Pyramids + Hanging Gardens + (maybe Philosophical) should equal a Great Engineer in time, no? Serfdom/Math chops and post-Feudalism bulb Slavery (with extra Hanging Gardens population) combined with Vassalage should help in getting a well-promoted army together quickly. I agree that time is of essence.

No way can you do this without strat resources. You need Ivory, or at the very least Iron.

Why can't it be done with Longbows, again? The Catapults will cause a lot of collateral damage, and then Longbows should be able to clean and hold. Elephants have the distraction of Horseback Riding. That trade may not be available, nor can they be generated before Construction anyway. Swordsmen have the distraction of Bronze Working and Iron Working, and one may not have either metal after all (i.e. some would blame the map and reroll, something I would like to avoid).

You need the Stone for the Mids and a relatively good commerce and production start

Sure.

Anyway, when I've beelined Construction in the past and built the above two wonders, I've always considered Engineering the next step as that is where Construction heads to and it also has Stone buildings and a Stone wonder. I am just into thinking about your Construction for Monarchy trade a bit. Perhaps, one could think about Sitting Bull here a bit: philosophical, protective, and a weak offensive axeman (although resourceless). GE should come quick, longbows should be well promoted and offensively quite capable when combined with Catapults. Sitting Bull towards Crossbowmen is iron risky. Sitting Bull towards Longbowmen is guaranteed.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

The more I think about it, I find that the Feudalism bulb to be impractical. Mainly cuz you have to build either the Pyramids or Hanging Gardens to get GE points. Then you need to wait 50 turns to pop a GE.

Thank you for your thoughts. I agree that generating the GE can be a challenge, and all that should go into the calculus of whether to attempt this approach or not. But you could also build both wonders. You could also be Philosophical (indeed I was playing with Frederick and Sitting Bull mostly when I started experimenting with it). You could also (although I don't necessarily recommend it) corrupt the Great People pool with some scientists to push out what might be a GE earlier (you run the "risk" of having an academy instead).

Now let's say you build the Pyramids. This unlocks Representation. Going for Feudalism requires you to get the religious techs, get Monarchy (which is now useless), then go to Feudalism for the Serfdom civic which isn't really all that great anyways. It just seems inefficient to go down that tech path after you invested so much effort into building the Pyramids.

I agree that Hereditary Rule is already unlocked, so that is a drawback to researching Monarchy next. If you have a winery heavy start, however, Monarchy is not at all useless. It is also required to move up and continue to beeline Feudalism, Guilds, Banking, Replaceable Parts, Rifling, etc… if that is your destination.

Avoiding Bronze also likely means that you are isolated, so techs like Currency, Code of Laws, and Civil Service are much more valuable than Feudalism.

I have never bulbed Feudalism in isolation, nor would I recommend it. But I do not find Bronze Working or Axemen to be necessary when you have neighbors. A decent military: yes. Melee units specifically: no.

 

[Doshin]

Last post in this thread from me.

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The Liberalism bulb is just about defensible under very particular circumstances, but the Feudalism bulb is without merit.

Even with Stone, the Pyramids + Aqueduct + Hanging Gardens combo will amount to 500 . A single city working two Grassland mines and two Plains mines will generate 15 per turn. So you are looking at ~34 turns of production at max pop. Let's backtrack from there.

15 turns are required to build an initial Worker = T15

Some sort of barb defense must be built. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a single Warrior is built while growing to size 3. Food is emphasized, so IDK... ~12 turns are needed for a single fogbuster. This relies upon a choke point or being boxed in. = T27

A Settler is also needed. Let's say that this gets started at size 3. It will require 10-15 turns. = T37-42

The Settler will need to move to found a city. During this time, the capital builds a Warrior for military police while growing to max size. = T42-47.

MP is built and the capital is able to generate 15 per turn, consuming 17 turns to build the Mids. = T59-64

An Aqueduct is now needed. Let's assume that (somehow) Mathematics has been researched. = T65-70 (24 )

Now for the Hanging Gardens. 150 , so ten turns. = T75-80 (64 )

Five turns are now required to generate the Great Engineer. = T80-85.

---

The above numbers are pretty generous, assuming (e.g.) there are no barb problems.

If city #2 was founded around about T44, it will need to build barb defense, Workers, and Settlers for the empire, By the time the Hanging Gardens is built, you will do well to have 3 cities.

The Hanging Gardens grants 1 pop per city. Slavery allows us to quantify this as 30 per citizen. So, even with Stone, the build has cost 60 (160 if you factor in the low-priority Aqueduct). Five cities are needed to justify this wonder, and even that is a push: additional cities and buildings are usually more pressing at this stage. Health should not be an issue this early in the game, and the health benefit attaches to the wonder in any case (i.e. if an AI builds the HG, the health boost can be 'captured' at a later stage).

Regardless, an Engineer will be generated ~T83 if you are playing as a Philosophical leader, who has access to Stone, with a high commerce start, and the capital goes all out to secure these wonders.

A civic switch occurs, taking us to ~T84. You now possess three cities that lack a Barracks, Library, and Granary. Longbows are poorer offensive units than Horse Archers, Elephants, and Crossbowmen, all of which could be secured within +/-5 turns (depending on the unit in question and your commitment to a particular tech path). vicawoo suggests HBR may be researched between T40-T80. This seems ambitious to me, but is possible with a beeline (better on lower difficulties). Add another ten-fifteen turns for Elepults, I guess.

Without the HG, the GE will be available ~T84-89. Someone like Pacal or Ragnar will often reach Feudalism around about T90. The other AI follow shortly after (Feudalism is a high priority tech).

----

In short, the strategy would work with a Philosophical leader, who has (all but immediate) access to Stone, a strong commerce start, safety from barbs, but no Copper, Iron, Horses, or Ivory. If any of these conditions are violated, the bulb is inadvisable. There are far better alternative options.

Even under these conditions, it would be better to generate a Great Scientist and tech peacefully to Lib. But we are talking about a hypothetical construct: a game of this sort would be exceptionally (un)lucky.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

@Doshin. Thank you for your thoughts, and yield/turn breakdown. You put effort into your posts, so I am grateful.

Last post in this thread from me.

Too bad, because I'm about to make some very assertive statements and we could use your help in critiquing them. Unlike some other poster on this thread, however, let me make accurate statements that can stand up to scrutiny from the ultra-dedicated, ultra-experienced Deity players out there.

the Feudalism bulb is without merit.

With the respect that is due from a lower-level player to a higher-level player, I believe you are wrong, and I will now explain why.

In short, the strategy would work with a Philosophical leader, who has (all but immediate) access to Stone, a strong commerce start, safety from barbs, but no Copper, Iron, Horses, or Ivory. If any of these conditions are violated, the bulb is inadvisable.

Which leads to:

Delayed-Bronze Working Feudalism Bulb Statement #1: A Catapult/Longbow army is the best (non-UU) resourceless offensive army someone can hope to put together at that stage of the tech tree (Civs starting to transition from Classical to Medieval). Therefore, if one has stone, lacks military resources, but still wants to make an offensive move, the bulb is appropriate. (Edit: one dilemma being that one is unlikely to know if one has metals until one techs them—although one could make a calculation of their likelihood of having metals based on what types of tiles one has, since some tiles can have metals and some cannot. Nevertheless, the point is that the "safer, more guaranteed play" may very well also be the "best play." The gamble on metals may very well be a losing bet.)

Delayed-Bronze Working Feudalism Bulb Statement #2: Having no military resources is not common. Nevertheless, the less land one has, the more likely they are to lack military resources. Therefore, crowded maps, being "boxed in," and high sea levels are all situations in which one is more likely to lack military resources.

Of course, all that is gravy for me. Because my original argument (even way back in the Serfdom thread) has always been what a great defensive play the Stone wonder delayed Bronze Working Feudalism bulb is. Note that Doshin's three cities in the above scenario may very well be blocking off land for 3-5 more. Which leads us to:

Delayed-Bronze Working Feudalism Bulb Statement #3: Longbows are the best (land-based) defensive unit of their era. Therefore, the delayed Bronze Working GE Feudalism Bulb is the best (land-based) defensive bulb that one can make early in the game.

Delayed-Bronze Working Feudalism Bulb Statement #4: The defensive strength of the delayed bronze working GE Feudalism bulb is enhanced by the Vassalage civic (Feudalism), Walls (Masonry), Forts (Mathematics), and strategically placed forests (i.e. NOT chopped), all of which sync with the approach.

Delayed-Bronze Working Feudalism Bulb Statement #5: The ability to proceed up towards the Civil Service/Paper/Education line gives the peaceful, defensive minded player an appropriate tech path to pursue further, which includes more Stone Wonders (University of Sankore and Oxford University) to build and protect.

Finally, let me make the following statement:

Delayed-Bronze Working Feudalism Bulb Statement #6: Given that the delayed bronze working Feudalism bulb is appropriate under less than ideal offensive conditions (lacking of military resources) or for a player more interested in protecting themselves than expanding (defensive play), it is unlikely to be utilized for a Hall of Fame entry or a "High Score." Nevertheless, it can still be one's best play if one is interested in winning the map in front of them, rather than rerolling.

I welcome serious critiques of the above statements. I can also make appropriate adjustments to the article based on these findings.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The Feudalism bulb statements seem plausible to me. Certainly, there can be no doubt that the longbowman is the best city defender of the mediaeval era.

Sitting Bull would be the ideal player Civ to use. His Dog Warriors need no strategic resource to build and although they are weaker at strength 4 rather than strength 5, they get +100% versus melee units, the most common offensive unit in the classical era. His Totem Pole provides an extra 3 XP for archery units, thus 6 XP with a Barracks for Longbowmen. His Protective trait provides free Drill I and City Garrison I promotions to all archery and gunpowder units, which makes his longbowmen even better. Finally, his Philosophical trait is going to help generate the Great Engineer fast enough to allow the Feudalism bulb to happen early enough to leverage longbowmen versus weaker units or with Catapults to decimate defenders, longbowmen can easily prevail over units of the same era (mediaevil).

What really interests me about this thread is the unorthadox strategy for the poor starts that are quite the opposite of what would be chosen for HoF play.

There is definitely room for strategies like this one that leverage a poor start. A single strategy does not fit (very well at least) all map types and starts.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

The Feudalism bulb statements seem plausible to me. Certainly, there can be no doubt that the longbowman is the best city defender of the mediaeval era.

Sitting Bull would be the ideal player Civ to use. His Dog Warriors need no strategic resource to build and although they are weaker at strength 4 rather than strength 5, they get +100% versus melee units, the most common offensive unit in the classical era. His Totem Pole provides an extra 3 XP for archery units, thus 6 XP with a Barracks for Longbowmen. His Protective trait provides free Drill I and City Garrison I promotions to all archery and gunpowder units, which makes his longbowmen even better. Finally, his Philosophical trait is going to help generate the Great Engineer fast enough to allow the Feudalism bulb to happen early enough to leverage longbowmen versus weaker units or with Catapults to decimate defenders, longbowmen can easily prevail over units of the same era (mediaevil).

Yes. I think the best traits for this strategy are Philosophical (earlier GE) and Protective (extra Longbow promotions). I would argue that it can be an appropriate strategy for anybody with one of those traits, but when they are combined it is particularly attractive. As you mentioned, Sitting Bull also has a unique building that syncs and a resourceless Bronze unit meaning that one doesn't need to actually secure Bronze. He also doesn't start with Mining, meaning that a Dog Soldier rush is handicapped a bit. It is also much more of a defensive unit, than an offensive one. Granted, they are good chokers, but so are Sitting Bull's well-promoted regular Archers. (Also, note that with Vassalage the Longbowmen can be generated at 8XP.) Actually, when I started playing with Sitting Bull, I would beeline BW for the Dog Soldiers, but then I eventually realized that one of the main advantages of a resourceless unit is the fact that I don't need to secure the resource, so I can actually tech in other directions and place my early cities based on other considerations.

What really interests me about this thread is the unorthadox strategy for the poor starts that are quite the opposite of what would be chosen for HoF play.

There is definitely room for strategies like this one that leverage a poor start. A single strategy does not fit (very well at least) all map types and starts.

Sun Tzu Wu

Thank you. And your contributions to the thread have been invaluable. Since I think we are now making some progress here (and there is now a temporary silence from the detractors) let me ask you a question concerning the GM Civil Service bulb. Basically, what is the type of situation (even non-Hall of Fame) in which you would want to open a game by beelining Currency (maybe after some worker techs). I already mentioned a fur heavy start. Do you agree? Any other situations you can think of? I have a hunch that starts that call for a Currency beeline will be well suited for the Civil Service bulb.

What I can think of are:
—Fur heavy starts.
—Ivory, if you don't plan on beelining War Elephants.
—Early peaceful expansion, whereby you are dropping your slider towards gold generation instead of science.
—Isolated Rome (haha), whereby the Praetorian is not needed, but the Forum would still be desired.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Early Currency is often very desirable, both for the extra trade route (which can be very profitable with the overseas bonus) and for Wealth building which allows one to convert hammers into wealth directly (which can allow a much higher research slider, even 100%. The wealth building will have greater synergy with maps that have an abundance of hammers and enough food to work them all. Of course Commerce Cities could usually profitably utilize a Market that Currency unlocks.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[RagingHordes]

The main benefit of Currency (at least imo), is the ability to trade using cash. The faster you have grown vertically, the bigger the benefits. That is, the more advanced you are, the more techs you will be able to sell and get more cash. (Sometimes you would get cash for Writing, or Animal Husbandry, for instance.)
It so happens that this situation makes CS desirable. That is, fast vertical growth is usually an indication of a strong capitol. Therefore, Bureaucracy would likely have an important impact.

The extra trade route is also very useful, but rather in the opposite situation. If you grew well horizontally and have a nice number of cities, the impact of the extra trade routes is bigger. In this case it is less likely that CS and Bureaucracy will be the most important beeline. (although sometimes it is the case due to a desire to spread irrigation)

The two situations merge when you are able to settle aggressively and block land. Then grow vertically and settle blocked land after Currency. Sometimes this is feasible.

But, if I take the pains to produce a GM (harder than GS), why do I use it for bulbing instead of trade mission? Maybe if you are isolated. But in isolation, wouldn't you want the GS rather than spending your gpp to get a GM? And, does a GM bulb the whole CS, or just a part?
I don't see an answer to these questions that would recommend the CS bulbing path.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

A Great Merchant will bulb nearly all of Civil Service on smaller maps (Duel, Tiny & Small). It will bulb about 2/3 of Civil Service on larger maps (Standard, Large & Huge). This is what recall when playing these map sizes.

Maybe someone else can provide more detailed information.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[qazq2]

If he can win at immortal then his strategy is probably sound, just saying. I am a chop/whip addict so I am not confident I can play this right, but may try it soon. He never said that his strategy would be best in all situations. But there are some situations where I think I have a terrible spot and if I used this strategy it would've been a lot easier for me. Also, Brennus is using dogma correctly, he has proven his strategy works, I've never used it before but will keep it in mind for futute games.

Due to momentary stupidity I forgot that there were more than one pages so my response is completely outdated. My bad.

 

[qazq2]

Nice, I plan on trying this out sometime. Thanks for the new strategy.

 

[RagingHordes]

Oh, no sweat! Enjoy your games!

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

OK… Sounds like extra trade routes, wealth building, markets, and gold trading are all good reasons to beeline Currency early (taking other factors into consideration as well, of course). It seems as if this beeline is enhanced by the presence of market resources (fur, ivory, silk, and whale, especially fur since it comes online early and has no military usage). This beeline is also best done in a peaceful situation, either vertically growing or peacefully expanding, since it does not involve prioritizing military units. An exception might be those civs with an archery UU (Mali?) since they can start producing those without much of a tech tree distraction.

The question is after one beelines Currency, does a bulb towards Civil Service make sense. I would argue that it does, especially if one has a high-commerce and/or high production capital, which would be greatly enhanced by running Bureaucracy. Financial is therefore a good trait for this approach (again, Mali). So is Philosophical since we would be running Caste System instead of Slavery. I don't play her much, but note that Elizabeth is both Philosophical and Financial. Those traits certainly don't make me think of Slavery. And also note that Mali and England are the two most wealth-oriented civs, since their UBs have extra wealth modifiers. This makes spamming Markets, Grocers, Banks (Stock Exchanges), and Mints and turning the slider towards Gold more attractive than it would be otherwise. (America also has a wealth modifying UB, but it comes much later).

Thoughts?

But, if I take the pains to produce a GM (harder than GS), why do I use it for bulbing instead of trade mission?

First, it won't be harder to produce a GM than a GS because we will be utilizing Caste System. Second, in my experience, an early GM bulb will yield more than an early GM trade mission, since the trade mission is factored based on trade routes, which start small but grow over time and distance. Third, the bulb is also superior to Trade Mission deficit teching (i.e. using the gold to deficit research) since the bulb allows one to utilize that yield instantly, rather than chip away at it over many turns. The sooner I can get to Civil Service, the sooner I can run Bureaucracy and get the +50% commerce and production bonus in my capital.

But in isolation, wouldn't you want the GS rather than spending your gpp to get a GM?

I wouldn't limit it to isolation. And then the GS versus GM should be determined by what exactly someone is trying to beeline. The GM bulbs totally different techs. Besides, at that point there are not too many fantastic GS bulbs. An academy can be good. So can a Philosophy bulb if Taoism is still available. Pacifism also syncs with Caste System. But after those two uses, the GS gets hung up on Aesthetics, then Sailing, then Calendar; not attractive bulbs. The GM, however, can bulb Civil Service, which is an attractive bulb. GS bulbs become attractive again after paper, when one can bulb (or double bulb) Education. (After that, there is the potential Liberalism bulb as well).

Anyway, if one wants an academy and/or to bulb Philosophy, there is no reason that the GM Civil Service bulb needs to be from your first great person. Since we are going from Currency to Code of Laws, we should be running Caste System for unlimited merchants. Potentially then, the GM utilized for the Civil Service bulb could be anywhere from the 1st to 3rd great person. Philosophy and Civil Service bulbs also work together since they allow us to access Nationalism and/or are on the Liberalism beeline.

And, does a GM bulb the whole CS, or just a part?

Depends on difficulty level (and I didn't know map size until Sun Tzu Wu mentioned it). I don't have the game in front of me, but on Immortal I remember the GM bulbing about 1050 of 1300 something. A nice bulb.

Nice, I plan on trying this out sometime. Thanks for the new strategy.

You're welcome! Thanks for reading the article and for trying the strategy out. Feel free to provide us feedback of how it goes.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Some factoids about Mali:

The Malian World Wonder (in real history) is the University of Sankore, built in Timbuktu.

Malian society (again in real history) utilized a caste system.

Timbuktu was also well known for its market.

By some accounts, Mansa Musa was the richest man in the history of the world.

The skirmisher is a very durable (and guaranteed) unit, thus making a gamble on axemen much less attractive.

Producing a stack of Skirmishers to take out a neighbor (the Mali Empire was founded via warfare with neighboring groups) is a good reason not to focus production on an early library.

If one avoids Bronze Working (and Priesthood) and instead techs Currency to Code of Laws (via Math or Alphabet, trading for the other) and then runs merchants in caste system, the first two Great Merchant bulbs will be 1) Civil Service; and 2) Paper. One can then build an early University of Sankore with half price (spiritual trait) temples. Note that in real history the Mali Empire adopted Islam, and did not found its own major religion.

A sensible tech path from there appears to be Metal Casting (via trade maybe?) to Machinery to Printing Press for extra yield financial cottages, a very strong trading position, and still on a beeline to Rifling (via Banking, which syncs with the wealth accumulation approach). In fact, if one trades for Priesthood (Sankore temples) and Monarchy (Mansa Musa was an Emperor), then Metal Casting, Machinery, and Printing Press will be your next available Great Merchant bulbs.

 

[Gregonar]

Brennus, I think you've stirred up enough religious controversy to warrant your own CIV IV event--shall we make you a scientist for 1, build an academy in your honor for 2, or burn you at the stake for 1 for 15 turns?

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Brennus, I think you've stirred up enough religious controversy to warrant your own CIV IV event--shall we make you a scientist for 1, build an academy in your honor for 2, or burn you at the stake for 1 for 15 turns?

Haha. Now that is a clever and welcome joke, although I am certainly not worthy of an academy. I also (honestly) don't intend to upset anyone. Just sharing some bulb opportunities, utilizing some lesser preferred civics, and enjoying/appreciating/incorporating huts and events.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Thank you, Brennus.Quigley, for the Mali history lesson and the clever way of expressing a new bulbing opportunity appropriate for Mansa Musa.

Sun Tzu Wu