The benefits of avoiding bronze working

[RagingHordes]

Having played some off-the-trodden-road maps lately, I'm starting to believe in the value of some unusual GM bulbs. So, Brennus, thank you for making me think more on this point!

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Thank you, Brennus.Quigley, for the Mali history lesson and the clever way of expressing a new bulbing opportunity appropriate for Mansa Musa.

Sun Tzu Wu

My pleasure. And thanks for your continued support and feedback.

Note that early Currency and Paper will open up some map selling (and buying) opportunities. Getting out some scouts early while one is still teching archery may thus pay off. Also note that it was forbidden for non-Muslims to travel to Timbuktu and that a non-Muslim did not reach there and report back until 1828. Thus there is a history of map protection with Mali, although one will want to balance that out with trade route considerations.

Finally, note that we may be able to (math) chop the University of Sankore, since we have not previously wasted our chops elsewhere.

Having played some off-the-trodden-road maps lately, I'm starting to believe in the value of some unusual GM bulbs. So, Brennus, thank you for making me think more on this point!

Awesome. And thanks for your helpful participation and feedback.

The other delayed Bronze Working GM bulbs off of Civil Service appears to be towards Nationalism and Constitution. Might be a good play for India (early Mausoleums), although I have to test it out. Note that the Taj Mahal is an Indian world wonder!

Would also be interested in whatever unusual GM bulbs you are dabbling with, even if they include Bronze Working.

 

[RagingHordes]

I am not experienced with unusual games, so for me it was a surprise to consider for the first time bulbing with a GM instead of using it for cash. (if you make a GM for bulbing, you might as well make a GS for bulbing even more, right? well... no, it's not always that simple)
Bulbing your way to an early Constitution is pretty useful for many strategies that rely on espionage and/or specialists...

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I agree. The vast majority of players do not even consider non-Great Scientist bulbs, because Great Scientists bulb +50% more beakers than any non-Great Scientist bulbs and the most practical Great Scientist bulbs are known by many, if not most good players.

The non-Great Scientist bulbs have great potential for aiding in bulbing technologies that Great Scientists can not bulb. We just need to determine which of those are practical to use, which are of generally marginal value and which are always impractical. There will no doubt be bulb strategies that have good synergy with specific player leaders as the recent example of Mansa Musa illustrates.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Having dabbled with it, some additional thoughts on the Mali approach:

—Skirmishers are very formidable early on and therefore the Mali Empire can and should be vast via conquering neighboring groups, as it did in real history.

—The Skirmisher is a horrible unit to slave out, as it is worth 25 hammers and therefore can never be 2 pop-whipped.

—Conquer gold should keep our slider at 100% science while expanding.

—At Currency we begin building a Market in Timbuktu.

—At Code of Laws, these things should converge: 1) we are running out of conquer gold and cities to conquer, 2) we have our market just about completed, and 3) we can now run caste system.

—At this point we turn the slider towards wealth generation, enhanced by a market in our high commerce capital, and we run great merchants in a high food city (or cities) and we begin to bulb techs with GMs, rather than researching them. As previously mentioned, the GM bulbs will go Civil Service (enabling Bureaucracy) to Paper (enabling the University of Sankore. We should have Stone as we expanded and the University of Sankore's strength increases with expansion. We can now get Bronze Working and (math) chop it out rather fast.

—Map selling can raise even more revenue.

—Caste System with an expansive civilization such as Mali also has the rather significant advantage of running artists in newly conquered cities to culturally consolidate the newly conquered land while non-enemies are still expanding (although we don't really want any Great Artists here, but that isn't much of a problem as you can get the border pops well before any Great Artist is generated). No monuments or libraries needed.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

I agree. The vast majority of players do not even consider non-Great Scientist bulbs, because Great Scientists bulb +50% more beakers than any non-Great Scientist bulbs and the most practical Great Scientist bulbs are known by many, if not most good players.

The non-Great Scientist bulbs have great potential for aiding in bulbing technologies that Great Scientists can not bulb. We just need to determine which of those are practical to use, which are of generally marginal value and which are always impractical. There will no doubt be bulb strategies that have good synergy with specific player leaders as the recent example of Mansa Musa illustrates.

Sun Tzu Wu

My thoughts on the Great Merchant bulbs:

—Currency. Marginal. Only GMs available before Currency are from the Great Lighthouse, the Temple of Artemis (maybe), and the Colossus. These are not on the path to Currency, so there is little synergy. Edit: With Caste System via Priesthood, non-wonder GMs are definitely possible before Currency. Still, I think this bulb is marginal and the Currency lead off to the list means that we tech through it.
—Banking. Practical. A good full bulb that is high on the list with Currency being a prerequisite anyway.
—Economics. Practical. GMx2. And first there gets another free great merchant, so one of them is replaced. Opens up Free Market. Heads towards Corporation. Prerequisites are also possible bulbs.
—Corporation. Practical. GMx2. Wall Street sooner rather than later. Heads to Assembly Line.
—Metal Casting. Marginal. I've done this with the GM from the Lighthouse before, but I no longer see synergy. Not a full bulb, and we can get to Metal Casting sooner by beelining it, rather than bulbing it. Colossus likely gone.
—Code of Laws. Marginal/Wasteful. Not a full bulb, but if Confucianism is not yet founded it may be OK. But if one has the distinct goal of founding Confucianism rather than stumbling into it, there are better ways.
—Mining. Wasteful.
—Constitution. Practical. GMx3. Opens up representation and jails. From there to Corporation or Democracy.
—The Wheel. Wasteful.
—Alphabet (BTS). Marginal or Wasteful. Not a full bulb. Don't like to bulb Alphabet, but if one does, a GS is easier to generate for it, although the GS has a mathematics prerequisite that the GM does not. Rather tech through Alphabet and use said GM to bulb techs that are beyond.
—Pottery. Wasteful.
—Sailing. Wasteful.
—Paper. Practical. GMx1. University of Sankore, in real life a Mali World Wonder. Good for Financial, expanding civilizations with a religion.
—Railroad. Impractical to Marginal. GMx5 or 6. Prerequisites are not on this list. Mining Inc.?
—Industrialism. Impractical.
—Monarchy. Marginal.
—Civil Service. Practical. A full bulb. Unlocks Bureaucracy and other valuable GM bulbing opportunities. Heads to Paper or Nationalism.
—Guilds. Practical/Marginal. Better for a banking beeline, than for a Knight beeline as one cannot bulb it without other Banking prerequisites. More than a full bulb. Can build Grocers.
—Fascism. Maybe Practical? GMx3. Assembly Line and Rifling are not on this list, but most of their prerequisites are.
—Mass Media. Impractical to Marginal. Likely easier with Great Artists. Civilized Jewelers?
—Agriculture. Wasteful.
—Writing. Wasteful
—Mathematics. Wasteful
—Printing Press. Practical. GMx2. Extra commerce from cottages. To Democracy or Replaceable Parts.
—Flight. Impractical.
—Machinery. Practical. A full bulb. Forges already open up a GE that can bulb it if one is on a Machinery beeline. But a GM can bulb it after Civil Service for Macemen. Also heads to Printing Press and Guilds (among other things).
—Replaceable Parts. Practical. GMx2. All substantive prerequisites, except for Feudalism, are earlier on this list.
—Satellites. Impractical.
—Mysticism. Wasteful.
—Priesthood. Wasteful.
—Divine Right. Impractical/Marginal. Maybe only if Islam or the Spiral Minaret are lingering. Faster way to beeline with Great Prophets. But the Spiral Minaret and University of Sankore do have good synergy.
—Nationalism. Marginal. GMx2. Almost great. But the need to get Monarchy and Paper make it less of a beeline. Instead, I am thinking Liberalism for Nationalism (immediate use of Liberalism civics and its free tech) followed by a GM Constitution bulb.
—Calendar. Impractical. Not an accessible bulb early on when it may be practical.
—Scientific Method. Impractical. Better to do with Great Scientists.
—Medicine. Impractical/Marginal. GMx6. Maybe to found Sid's Sushi.
—Horseback Riding. Wasteful at the point in which it would be possible.
—Compass. Wasteful at the point in which it would be possible.
—Steam Power. Marginal. GMx4. Plays off of Replaceable Parts, but other prerequisites are not here. Does head to Assembly Line which is also opened up by Corporation which is on here.
—Future Tech. Wasteful. Should be running Golden Ages or Trade Missions.


So in sum (for now), I believe the most practical GM bulbs are as follows:

Banking
Economics
Corporation
Constitution (delayed Bronze Working for efficiency)
Paper (delayed Bronze Working for efficiency)
Civil Service (delayed Bronze Working for efficiency)
Guilds
Printing Press
Machinery
Replaceable Parts

 

[dankok8]

I congratulate Brennus.Quigley for trying to innovate but I personally don't see any situation where I wouldn't research Bronze Working in my first 10 technologies. And I'm talking about that 6% of maps or whatever that % is. Even I'm using Mali or Egypt or Persia...

Consider a very rare situation geared towards the OP's strategy:
- poor food no forest start (can't chop or whip)
- isolated on small landmass (no need for immediate metal to defend barbs)

It's still likely some of my other cities will have surplus food and there is always some forest. Even if I do 2-3 chops and 2-3 whips the BW tech still pays for itself. The earlier I use it the bigger the snowball effect so it's still advantageous to get it. Not to mention it unlocks Iron Working (need to remove jungle and reveal Iron) and Metal Casting for the Colossus.

In any non-isolated situation forget whip/chop I can't ever imagine not needing/wanting a source of metal. Same if there is a large landmass where there is a lot of barbs. What I do with barb Swordsmen and Horse Archers? I cower in my cities while they pillage? Just for metal I would research it early.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

@dankok8:

Thanks for expressing your opinion that virtually every map will benefit from Bronze Working in the first 10 technologies researched. You have provided no proof that your opinions are backed up by facts. Several players have tried to play games that proved a point similar to yours and failed. Why should we accept your opinions as fact without any proof?

There are no simple formulas for success in Civ IV Beyond the Sword. That includes the strategy of fitting Bronze Working in the first ten technologies. It simply isn't going to work for 100% of all maps, especially at Deity level. One needs to play to the strengths of the map; if there are none, then skipping Bronze Working may help.

What does one do after following your strategy to discover there is no accessible Copper or Iron? Would you suggest whipping Archers for defense? Now what could have been researched/bulbed instead of Bronzing Working and Iron Working that would really help?

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Abegweit]

@dankok8:

Thanks for expressing your opinion that virtually every map will benefit from Bronze Working in the first 10 technologies researched. You have provided no proof that your opinions are backed up by facts. Several players have tried to play games that proved a point similar to yours and failed. Why should we accept your opinions as fact without any proof?

There are no simple formulas for success in Civ IV Beyond the Sword. That includes the strategy of fitting Bronze Working in the first ten technologies. It simply isn't going to work for 100% of all maps, especially at Deity level. One needs to play to the strengths of the map; if there are none, then skipping Bronze Working may help.

What does one do after following your strategy to discover there is no accessible Copper or Iron? Would you suggest whipping Archers for defense? Now what could have been researched/bulbed instead of Bronzing Working and Iron Working that would really help?

Sun Tzu Wu

This rant is really getting lame. It is up to you to prove that such a map exists instead of demanding that we prove a negative.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

This rant is really getting lame. It is up to you to prove that such a map exists instead of demanding that we prove a negative.

Proving that a map exists for which the delayed Bronze Working strategy works has already been done, twice.

Given the above facts, proving that every map benefits more from early Bronze Working than delayed Bronze Working is going to be really, really hard to do (mathematically impossible == one or more counter examples already exist).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

@Abegweit

There are two and only two reasons why you might avoid a tech in the game: WFYABTA and bulbing. That's it.

Just to show you that your very assertive posts are not exactly accurate, I'll give you a third reason to avoid a technology: obsoleting buildings or wonders.

I find it very interesting that almost a month later, you have still not acknowledged that your very assertive post above was clearly inaccurate and false. Instead of acknowledging that my correction of your post was accurate (as one would do in a good-spirited exchange of ideas), you just kind of ignored it and disappeared. And now you want to come back to the thread using words such as "rant" and "lame?" Ironic, to say the least.

 

[UnforcedError]

Brennus and STW: if you want to keep your conversation private why don't you follow up on it via PMs? Otherwise people like dankok8 might (apparently) erroneously assume this was a thread to express their opinion about the significance of BW in without being attacked immediately.

The benefits of an early BW had been proven on both maps Brennus presented earlier in this thread. End of story. And it's actually up to Brennus to prove that his strategy might rival or surpass the more 'conventional' ones on 'some' maps. Playing either of the GOTMs, HOFs, games posted in S & T etc might help there. Just pick a map you think your strategy might work with.

 

[Penopat]

I love this topic Between all the screaming, yelling, ad hominem, people getting insulted, and ridiculous amounts of insistence, there's a great amount of data here on both sides of the strategies discussed here and I'm definitely going to try these different ideas out sometime for fun. I'm not nearly a Deity player, but honestly, even unorthodox plays like these can help educate players who aren't quite at Deity level in ways that typical HoF-style starts/playstyles or [rerolled] convenience starts/playstyles can't.

Would it be possible that the avoiding bronze working strategies/data (and opposition of said strategies) here could be neatened up and presented in an organized, fair-to-both-sides manner all in one or two posts? A disclaimer might be in order if done so (this is all largely in dispute, try at own risk), but I'd love it if the individual players reading such a topic/article would come to their own conclusions about it; perhaps they could post their own results on varying difficulty levels (on both sides, maybe players trying both ways on the same map?) and we can collect data from there, optimal or not, as opposed to endless arguing

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

Brennus and STW: if you want to keep your conversation private why don't you follow up on it via PMs? Otherwise people like dankok8 might (apparently) erroneously assume this was a thread to express their opinion about the significance of BW in without being attacked immediately.

I don't have any problem with dankok8 participating in the thread. I actually like how he began his 'detractor post' with a 'congratulations' to me of sorts, something that the more rude posters on the forum don't bother to do. I therefore don't have a problem with him at all, and I thank him for his 'congratulations.' I also agree with Sun Tzu Wu's counter that there are holes in his argument, such as the assumption that there would be metals present and, I would add, an assumption that Slavery is the best early labor civic for all civs and all maps.

The benefits of an early BW had been proven on both maps Brennus presented earlier in this thread. End of story. And it's actually up to Brennus to prove that his strategy might rival or surpass the more 'conventional' ones on 'some' maps.

Of course, the challenge you are handing over to me is for an Immortal-level player who has just recently stepped up to Deity (i.e. me) to utilize a delayed Bronze Working bulb to beat Deity in a faster or more convincing manner than all of the Deity masters out there, who are obviously much better players than I. Now actually, I did that for 10 months. I posted a Qin Deity map and for 10 months I was the only player who could beat it, and I was playing way above my head. Even you posted on the thread lecturing me about how the proper approach to that map was the Great Lighthouse, but you never even bothered to post the results of your Great Lighthouse approach, presumable because it did not result in a victory for you. Now Doshin has come along and beat that map in a "more convincing manner" utilizing a no-stone Stonehenge, no-stone Pyramids, and no-Copper Colossus start, a strategy which he himself does not believe should be taught to rookies. (And of course, you instantly posted your congratulations to him, something that you never did for me). His play through makes me regret that I used "random leader" and ended up with an Industrious one, for a strategy that does not sync with the Industrious trait well. And of course, Doshin exited the thread by saying, in part, that, "The Liberalism bulb is just about defensible under very particular circumstances," although he didn't care to elaborate.

Now, I don't think the following points should be controversial:
1) Delayed Bronze Working bulbs have been proven "viable."
2) For 10 months, I offered the best evidence that I could that delaying Bronze Working could be "optimal" for an isolated cultural win on Deity. Only after 10 months was my evidence effectively challenged.
3) Asking me to beat a Deity map using any strategy more effectively than the Deity masters out there is an extremely tall order.
4) The article itself is due for a revision (and I am prepared to word a few things in there differently).
5) This thread need not be so acrimonious. Some are interested in the prospect of delayed Bronze Working bulb opportunities. Some are not. The author of the article has yet to prove his case. But he gave it a genuine effort early on, and then took a longtime off while his Qin win stood. The thread was revived by others, not by him.

Playing either of the GOTMs, HOFs, games posted in S & T etc might help there. Just pick a map you think your strategy might work with.

I'm unlikely to play those maps, as I am not interested in playing 7-civ/no-hut/no-event maps. Those maps also have a strong selection bias in that they were chosen by players who don't use delayed Bronze Working bulbs, or who don't find "non-strong" starts fun to play. Note the Immortal University comments: "(note not the first start as we got a plains cow start on first)" and "(Rolled afew Oasis starts but didn't like any)." I'm also: 1) enjoying 14-civ low sea level maps at the moment; and 2) not interested in empowering slavery via turning off the possibility of slave revolts.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

I love this topic Between all the screaming, yelling, ad hominem, people getting insulted, and ridiculous amounts of insistence, there's a great amount of data here on both sides of the strategies discussed here and I'm definitely going to try these different ideas out sometime for fun. I'm not nearly a Deity player, but honestly, even unorthodox plays like these can help educate players who aren't quite at Deity level in ways that typical HoF-style starts/playstyles or [rerolled] convenience starts/playstyles can't.

Awesome. Thanks for your feedback, and I'm glad to hear that you are interested in playing through "less-than-ideal-starts," as am I.

Would it be possible that the avoiding bronze working strategies/data (and opposition of said strategies) here could be neatened up and presented in an organized, fair-to-both-sides manner all in one or two posts? A disclaimer might be in order if done so (this is all largely in dispute, try at own risk), but I'd love it if the individual players reading such a topic/article would come to their own conclusions about it; perhaps they could post their own results on varying difficulty levels (on both sides, maybe players trying both ways on the same map?) and we can collect data from there, optimal or not, as opposed to endless arguing

The article has long since had some disclaimers, including: "Some experienced players reading the first version of this article have noted that not self-teching Bronze Working and 'actively avoiding Bronze Working' are two different things. While they may be able to see the benefit of focusing one's early research elsewhere on the tech tree, they question the value of actively avoiding it since it can be picked up rather easily in a trade." I also intend to revise/improve the article somewhat in the not too distance future.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Brennus and STW: if you want to keep your conversation private why don't you follow up on it via PMs? Otherwise people like dankok8 might (apparently) erroneously assume this was a thread to express their opinion about the significance of BW in without being attacked immediately.

The benefits of an early BW had been proven on both maps Brennus presented earlier in this thread. End of story. And it's actually up to Brennus to prove that his strategy might rival or surpass the more 'conventional' ones on 'some' maps. Playing either of the GOTMs, HOFs, games posted in S & T etc might help there. Just pick a map you think your strategy might work with.

There are two maps/games detailed earlier in this thread that prove delayed Bronze Working is optimal for those two maps. Incomplete games and games where reloading was used do not count.

Opinions are fine as long as they are presented as just opinions rather than facts. I object to opinions being represented as facts without proof. I'm sorry you misinterpreted that as a personal attack.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[UnforcedError]

@Penopat: the problem is, 'the other side' as you call it is largely gone from this thread. Unsubscribed, deleted, forgotten. Everyone will jump on this title initially, express his opinion, and will then be told to bug off. And they will. It's not the forum community that needs to prove a point, it's Brennus and so far he failed to do so.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Doshin called his approach 'pulling an obsolete'. Obsolete's SSE-strategy was critized by many on this forum initially, but he presented countless maps and write-ups on various levels to prove that it's a viable strategy. I'm not a great fan of SSE in general but there are definitely maps where I'd consider a variant of it the most optimal. And it can definitely win you the game even on maps where it's not necessarily the fastest approach. This is an example of a guy who managed to prove his point.

@Brennus: I guess if all you want from this forum is being thanked and congratulated to than you might want to get involved more (participate in ongoing games and discussions etc.) I suggested playing GOTMs or HOFs because they generally attract a large audience and thus we'd have more reference games. I fail to see why huts and events are crucial to your strategy but if you think you can't do without them you could post a game in S&T yourself with a map that suits your strategy. Just remember that huts and events will very likely limit the number of interested participants. And you don't necessarily have to post a deity game. IIRC according to the latest poll the majority of the more active forumers prefers EMP.

The GLH turned out to be bad on this map, but it was a first impulse, blind approach which cannot be said about your decision to go for culture and Meditation on T0 which requires extended map knowledge. I don't think I need to elaborate more.

This is my last post in this thread, which I will unsubscribe from as well. Happy gaming.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

The GLH turned out to be bad on this map, but it was a first impulse, blind approach

Nonsense. You had already seen the map and my play through. You knew the continent and knew you were isolated.

which cannot be said about your decision to go for culture and Meditation on T0 which requires extended map knowledge. I don't think I need to elaborate more.

And you continue to ignore my second play through, in which I tech for pottery and eventually found Taoism.

This is my last post in this thread, which I will unsubscribe from as well. Happy gaming.

Later.

 

[pigswill]

I find it difficult to disagree with the idea of 'play the map not the theory' and researching BW for the sake of it is less useful than researching a tech you know you can use.

Its also true in some instances that there will be maps where its better to delay BW for several turns, maybe even a hundred turns or so.

What isn't clear is how do you identify the point where BW becomes advantageous on a particular map.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I agree that a more precise guideline for when to delay Bronze Working is needed. First of all, without prior knowledge of the map, there is no sure way of knowing whether delaying Bronze Working will be beneficial. The decision must be based on the part of the map that has been revealed. The decision might even change as more plots are revealed, assuming it was a close call earlier in the game.

Two good reasons to aviod Bronze Working are:

1) The initial city site has more than a 3 Fpt surplus with Ancient Era improvments. The city will not quickly recover from whipping, though it may be marginally useful for whipping critical infrastructure. Maybe the threshold should be +2 Fpt; not sure about this, but noone will ever say that +3 Fpt is good whipping city, so +3 Fpt seems to be a good threshold.

2) Low Forests - it will be harder to determine a number of forests for which BW is not worth researching to chop them. I would say that six forests in the capital's BFC is marginal. Some might say that four forests is enough to make researching BW profitable. However, I would stick with six for now, until it is proven than four or five is a better threshold.

It may be useful to define a Mapfinder rule set to generate such maps and review them.

Sun Tzu Wu