The Carthage Thread

[jsciv69]

Carthage: Ancient Civilization that occupied North Africa. A Phoenician colony that became an empire that lasted close to 700 years. It's odd that Carthage was omitted in Civ VI. This thread is based on the possibility that Carthage returns to Civilization.
Traits and Characteristics: Trade and Navigation. Phoenicians were traders. Setting up Trade markets and colonies along the entire Mediterranean. Bonuses toward setting up Eary Trade markets should be a must for Carthage. Seafaring and ship building should also be available early.
Unique Units: Hippo(Trade Ship), Sacred Band(Hoplite spearman),
Leader Options: Dido-Apparent founder and 1st Queen of Carthage. Mago I- Origin of the Magonid Dynasty, King of Carthage. Hannibal- Commanding General and later Shophet.

 

[Patine]

Carthage: Ancient Civilization that occupied North Africa. A Phoenician colony that became an empire that lasted close to 700 years. It's odd that Carthage was omitted in Civ VI. This thread is based on the possibility that Carthage returns to Civilization.
Traits and Characteristics: Trade and Navigation. Phoenicians were traders. Setting up Trade markets and colonies along the entire Mediterranean. Bonuses toward setting up Eary Trade markets should be a must for Carthage. Seafaring and ship building should also be available early.
Unique Units: Hippo(Trade Ship), Sacred Band(Hoplite spearman),
Leader Options: Dido-Apparent founder and 1st Queen of Carthage. Mago I- Origin of the Magonid Dynasty, King of Carthage. Hannibal- Commanding General and later Shophet.

I would not want to see Dido, for the same reason I would not want to see some other suggestions made on these sub-forums, such as Gilgamesh (I don't think anyone here suggested his return - I include him because he's currently in game), Solomon, Menes, Romulus, Junius Brutus, Shango, the Queen of Sheba, Menelik I, Quetzalcoatl, Hiawatha, and other leaders who may or may not have existed, but are so heavilty mythologized that very little is actually known about them as factual people and leaders if they did to credibly include them.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

I’d do Hamilcar Barca for Phoenicia, probably keeping the Civ UBonus.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Also did I start the trend of the “The ____ Thread”?

I think I’ll proclaim myself as the parent of that.

 

[jsciv69]

I’d do Hamilcar Barca for Phoenicia, probably keeping the Civ UBonus.

For the base game, I think someone like Hannibal would make sense. I was thinking giving him War Elephants as a special unit. But they were used elsewhere. And perhaps we can have a Civ Scenario featuring the Punic Wars Between Carthage and Rome.

 

[jsciv69]

I would not want to see Dido, for the same reason I would not want to see some other suggestions made on these sub-forums, such as Gilgamesh (I don't think anyone here suggested his return - I include him because he's currently in game), Solomon, Menes, Romulus, Junius Brutus, Shango, the Queen of Sheba, Menelik I, Quetzalcoatl, Hiawatha, and other leaders who may or may not have existed, but are so heavilty mythologized that very little is actually known about them as factual people and leaders if they did to credibly include them.

Dido was used in both Civ V & VI. Why would they use her twice if she is fictional?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Carthage: Ancient Civilization that occupied North Africa. A Phoenician colony that became an empire that lasted close to 700 years. It's odd that Carthage was omitted in Civ VI. This thread is based on the possibility that Carthage returns to Civilization.
Traits and Characteristics: Trade and Navigation. Phoenicians were traders. Setting up Trade markets and colonies along the entire Mediterranean. Bonuses toward setting up Eary Trade markets should be a must for Carthage. Seafaring and ship building should also be available early.
Unique Units: Hippo(Trade Ship), Sacred Band(Hoplite spearman),
Leader Options: Dido-Apparent founder and 1st Queen of Carthage. Mago I- Origin of the Magonid Dynasty, King of Carthage. Hannibal- Commanding General and later Shophet.

The Sacred Band was mentioned during the wars between the Greek and Carthaginian factions in Sicily, but was not a particularly battle-winning force even there, and appears to have completely disappeared by the time of the 'Punic Wars' with Rome. More importantly, it seems to have been simply a copy of the Greek Hoplite phalanx recruited from upper-class Carthaginian aristocrats, so finding a way to differentiate it from the common Greek UU is going to be difficult.

After Xanthippus' reforms, the strength of the Carthaginian military was mercenary or allied infantry and cavalry, most notably a mixed force of Libyan (Allied) heavy and light infantry, elephants, and a smaller force of mixed light and heavy Libyan (Allied or mercenary) cavalry. Gauls, Iberians, Baleric Island slingers were also hired as separate units with their own weapons and equipment and tactics.

A better and more unique Carthaginian land army UU, then, would be Heavy Cavalry (carrying long spears, a round aspis-type shield, sword and linen or leather body armor) or the African elephants, which Rance in an article in 2009 contends could carry towers or howdahs and so were nearly equal in combat to the larger Indian elephants used by the rest of the Mediterranean world (minus Ptolemaic Egypt, which also used the African forest elephant, the smallest of the modern elephant species)

Carthage was famous in antiquity for its use of mercenaries and its ability to hire troops from all over as needed. Some kind of Unique Ability to obtain troops with Gold from City States, Barbarian Huts, or even other Civs would be very appropriate.

 

[Patine]

Dido was used in both Civ V & VI. Why would they use her twice if she is fictional?

They had Gilgamesh too. And several of the female leaders in Civ2 were mythologized. I'm criticizing these decisions having been included, and showing a strong desire for the avoiding of them in the future. I know several others here agree with me on this. Thus, I'm afraid pointing out the issue being criticized as a fait accompli as having already been done is a bit counter-productive. It's almost like, "The Government taxes us way too much." "How can that be? You've already gotten a high tax burden last year, so it must be right." Do you see what I mean, there?

 

[Evie]

I’m not nearly so sanguine about mythologized leaders.

The truth is, popular history, which civ is based on, is essentially modern mythology to begin with - a collection of story about the heroes and villains of yesteryears who caused our world to be the way it is, not necessarily reflecting reality.

Even relatively recent political leaders are already strongly mythologized compared to what real history tells us of them. It is inevitable. And it is that mythologized version which civ features.

 

[Patine]

I’m not nearly so sanguine about mythologized leaders.

The truth is, popular history, which civ is based on, is essentially modern mythology to begin with - a collection of story about the heroes and villains of yesteryears who caused our world to be the way it is, not necessarily reflecting reality.

Even relatively recent political leaders are already strongly mythologized compared to what real history tells us of them. It is inevitable. And it is that mythologized version which civ features.

There is a difference I think, between leaders we have knowledge of, in a bio and personal data and their actual accomplishments and failings, but who have a legend around them, and those who are distant historical presences who may or may not have existed - or existed in the mold we know them, where he know their myth, but nothing about THEM, in truth. Do you see what I am saying, here?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'd very much like to have Phoenicia again.

Sacred Band(Hoplite spearman),

That just screams Greek (specifically Thebes) to me. They should have some sort of early naval unit, or cavalry unit whether it be an African Forest Elephant or Numidian Cavalry, if some sort of Numidian civ or city-state didn't make it in the game.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I'd very much like to have Phoenicia again.

That just screams Greek (specifically Thebes) to me. They should have some sort of early naval unit, or cavalry unit whether it be an African Forest Elephant or Numidian Cavalry, if some sort of Numidian civ or city-state didn't make it in the game.

Numidian tribes and polities in the area around Carthage were the source of both mercenaries and allied units. The Numidian light cavalry was famous (and later hired by the Romans), but they also provided most of the heavier cavalry, as well as both heavy and light 'Cathaginian' infantry. After the loss of most of the Sacred Band and other 'native' Carthaginian troops in Sicily, Carthage made the choice to substitute Gold for Blood in forming their army, and recruited as few people as possible from their own population, relying on allied or hired troops for most of the armies that fought the Romans.

The ONLY classical warship wreck found was Carthaginian, and it was an early Quadrireme. The principle warship used during the Punic Wars, though, was the more advanced and powerful Quinquereme, which among other things was big and stable enough to mount light catapults for extra 'firepower'. The Quadrireme may have been a Carthaginian invention, but there is still debate on that. What is known is that the only two naval forces to use many Quads were Carthage and Athens, and they switched to Quinqueremes by the late 4th century BCE.

IF the standard Classical warship were the Trireme, the Quadrireme would be appropriate (or at least arguable) for a Carthaginian Naval UU: the wreck found, when reconstructed, could have held up to 80 'marines', or about 4 - 5 times what a Trireme normally carried, and the ship was potentially as fast as a Trireme.

My personal preference for Numidian (Light) Cavalry would be to make them (Civ VI's) Horsemen, perhaps with a move after attacking and short ranged factor (they were experts with thrown javelins from horseback), and make them a unit available from a city state like Sirte or Cirte.

As posted earlier, Carthage really should have a Unique that allows them to get units from virtually all their neighbors with Gold: during the Punic Wars, they had Numidian, Iberian, Gaulic, Baleric, and possibly Macedonian (or Macedonian copies - native troops using Macedonian weapons and tactics) troops in their armies. The game needs some more representation of Mercenaries anyway, and Carthage was the premier mercenary power of the Classical world

 

[Evie]

I see what you're saying, Patine, but I don't see that difference as being of special importance from my point of view, since what we get in Civ are largely the mythologized version anyway (at least for those figures who DID make it into pop history). The Caesar of Civ is the Caesar of Shakespeare and Commentary on the Gallic War (which is certainly self-mythologizing) much more so than the Caesar that real history has eked out between the lines of what sources we have ; in that, he's not so differeomt from Dido of the Aeneid. Moreover, the further back we go, the less and less evidence of any given person's existence and deeds exist. And what little may make it to our time would be praising proclamation on stone monuments; themselves part of an effort at mythologizing.

Sure, "we're not sure this person existed" is ONE negative factor I'd consider when deciding what leaders to include, and I'd have a slight preference for better documented leaders over mythologized ones, but I see no reason for it to be an absolute red line. "We have good reason to believe his person didn't exist.", or "We're pretty sure that person is a god", that would be a red line, but it'S a much narrower scope.

Given that civilizations are much larger than individuals, and should leave far more considerable evidence of their existence and reach, I take a much dimmer view of the inclusion of unproven and mythologized civilizations.

(That means the Olmecs).

 

[Patine]

(That means the Olmecs).

In terms of that picture Henri loves to show off, we don't know that assumed leader's name, or any one else in it - "3Deer," seems to be a much later Mayan artist's, "creator tag," an artist who may not have even known their names, per se. And, my biggest beef with that one was Henri's premumption that certain uses of dyes in art (which produce many funky skin colours in old artistic rendtions around the world) implies, "Africans in an exalted position," amongst the Olmecs, despite no vector of travel, or fossilized remains of people in that area from that time with African DNA.

 

[Evie]

Okay, so I actually meant the Toltecs, since we do actualky know the Olmecs existed. Toltecs are the mythologized civilizations

But otherwise agreed with what you said. We know nothing of their language, the names of their cities, or their leaders, so even though they would in theory make a perfectly reasonable civilizations, they in practice are just not feasible.

 

[Patine]

But otherwise agreed with what you said. We know nothing of their language, the names of their cities, or their leaders, so even though they would in theory make a perfectly reasonable civilizations, they in practice are just not feasible.

The Harrappians, Minoans, and Norte Chico fall iinto this category, too.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The Harrappians, Minoans, and Norte Chico fall iinto this category, too.

Equally important, at least to me, are the civilizations whose Self Image or 'Historical' validation is problematic but all too often used as a basis to model the Civilization:

The Noble Savages - take your pick: noble ancient Germans, ancient/classical Gauls, Celts, Irish, Britons, Imperial Chinese with all their mental regalia, eternally unchanging and ecologicaly-senstive Native Americans - all myths, all too often invoked. To paraphrase a famous quote, the Past is a foreign country - not because they do things differently there, but because they think differently there, and most of their thoughts, frankly, would scare the c**p out of most of us.

This Land Is Our Land 'Cause We've Been Here Forever - which is true of virtually no one. For the worst case scenario, Europe has been the destination for so many immigrant groups - starting with modern Humans 35 - 40,000 years ago - that No Group in Europe has any claim on Permanent Residence. This is also, by the way, true of much of the Chinese population, which DNA has now tracked to central Asia - we still aren't sure how far back they moved in, but they definitely didn't start in modern 'China'.
This myth is particularly problematic given Civ's traditional Start Sequence: everybody starts in a fixed position wth every incentive to immediately found a city in 4000 BCE. This is an utterly false depiction of virtually every Civ that's ever been modeled in every rendition of the game, with the possible exception of the supposed 'starting Civs' like Sumer and Egypt - and even the First Dynasty that starts Egyptian 'history', in 4000 BCE is still 850 years in the future! Even without invoking a complete 'Neolithic Wander' period like Humankind, the game can do better than the rigid and totally unrealistic amd myth-based start sequence we are now stuck with.

 

[jsciv69]

I'd very much like to have Phoenicia again.

There is a difference between Phoenicia and Carthage. Phoenicia refers to a region of City-States, such as Byblos, Tyre, Sidon, that were a rule onto themselves. Carthage is the The North African territory settled and colonized by Phoenicians. A settlement that became an Empire. It's possible to have Carthage and the Phoenician City-States in the same game. Such as we had with Civ-V.

 

[Evie]

Too much overlap in my opinion. The Phoenician city states were commercial (and military) powers that engaged in far reaching sea voyages to settle colonies across the Mediteranean basin.

As opposed to Carthage, which was a Pheonician colony turned city state that was a commercial and military power that engaged in far reaching sea voyages and settled colonies across the Mediteranean basin, and ultimatrly built an empire out of those colonies and assorted vassals. Very different.

I see virtually no reason to have them separate; it'd be like having Greece and Athens as two separate civilizations.

 

[Patine]

This Land Is Our Land 'Cause We've Been Here Forever - which is true of virtually no one. For the worst case scenario, Europe has been the destination for so many immigrant groups - starting with modern Humans 35 - 40,000 years ago - that No Group in Europe has any claim on Permanent Residence. This is also, by the way, true of much of the Chinese population, which DNA has now tracked to central Asia - we still aren't sure how far back they moved in, but they definitely didn't start in modern 'China'.

This is even true of the people's living in Kenya, Uganda, and Tanazania not being the direct, straight-lineage line successors of the first anatomically correct humans, whose oldest fossils were from the area, like Jomo Kenyatta once suggested they were (save, POSSIBLY, one tiny ethnictiy in a few small, rural villages, in southwest Tanzania whose DNA and language are utterly unrelated to anyone around them - the languange being postulated to MAYBE be a distant, non-continguous member of the Khoisian Family - possibly) - but everyone else descends from the Great Bantu Migration from what is now the Cameroon-Nigeria border regions in the 8th-12th Centuries, who displaced, intermarried with, and PERHAPS wiped out everyone already there.