The Hawk-Dove Party--- see if you're interested

[Swissempire]

Well i'm quite flattered Maybe, who knows?

P.S. I respect oyu guys and invite you all to join the culturalists. I think that both parties could complement each other nicely. Peace through arms, and Growth through culture. A double bladed sword of expansion

 

[Hardvark]

I have a question that I'd like to put to my fellow party members, rather than subjecting myself to a firefight in the main DG forum at this point. My question is this:

Should the judiciary make decisions based on expediency?

My personal view is no, politicians make decisions based on expediency, the judiciary is there to make rulings based on the law - irrespective of whether those rulings are popular or expedient.

I haven't plucked this question completely out of the air. I spent last night reading through the judiciary forum and considering the justices ruling on the whole poll-fraud fiasco. It seems to me that the basis of their ruling was that all the polls were lawfully constituted and that it would delay the game too much to go through the whole process again. To my mind, as a judicial ruling that's not something that I'm comfortable with.

As I understand it, the situation was that there were 2 polls to choose a form of government. The first was tied and the second was won by triumvirate. The result of that second poll was then subject to a ratification vote. After it had been ratified, it became apparent that the first 2 polls had been subjected to massive fraud. The corrected results of the first 2 polls were that a flexible government was the choice of the people; however, that choice had been subverted. It seems to me that the result of the ratification cannot legally stand, because the foundation upon which it was based has been shown to be seriously flawed. By ruling that the polls were lawfully constituted, and that not abiding by the result of the ratification would delay the game, the judiciary have legitimised the fraud and aided the subversion of the will of the people. What sort of democracy is that?

Perhaps my view is a querk of living in a country with an independent judiciary, but I would be interested in hearing the views of the rest of the Hawk-Dove Party - even if those views are that I should climb back inside my box and replace the lid.

(I do realise that it's too late to do anything about the ruling - so this is really just an intellectual exercise to see where this party stands. )

 

[Bengeance]

I also read the JR and was quite interested in the findings. The clearest defense of the decision that I found was that the first to polls while informative and important are superceded by the final ratification poll as written in the constitution. Therefore even though the intial polls were seriously flawed becuase of the DL fraud, the ratification poll allowed the will of the people to be expressed.

Also, if you have looked through the different versions of the Tri government that were debated I think you will find that through the process of debate and negotiation the Tri and Flex governments came much closer. I think that the JR reflects that the people have been able to modify the Tri form enough to satisfy their desires. It is impossible to know what would have become of the Flex government, but I am willing to bet that we would ended up close to where we are now even if we had started with that set of laws.

 

[Hardvark]

I also read the JR and was quite interested in the findings. The clearest defense of the decision that I found was that the first to polls while informative and important are superceded by the final ratification poll as written in the constitution. Therefore even though the intial polls were seriously flawed becuase of the DL fraud, the ratification poll allowed the will of the people to be expressed.

The problem with that is that the will of the people was expressed based upon the result of seriously flawed polls. They were asked to ratify a result which they could have reasonably expected to reflect the will of the people, or at least the will of those citizens who actually voted, but which in fact merely represented an individual's attempt to subvert that will.

Given that this is just a game and supposed to be fun, I accept that a certain amount of pragmatism is required if we're ever to get anywhere. But I think that a more legally defensible ruling would have been to let the people decide whether they were more interested in expedience than justice. A simple poll could have been held offering citizens the choice of accepting the flawed decision to choose the triumvirate as the preferred form of government, thus allowing the game to proceed, or to re-run the whole process to ensure that the chosen form of government reflected the will of the people. It needn't have delayed matters for more than a few days and could have provided the triumvirate government with considerably more legitimacy than it surely has at present.

Please excuse my continued roll as Devil's Advocate!

 

[Bengeance]

Actually they did run such a poll.

As you can see, the will of the people was to continue on with the modified version of the Tri government that had been ratified.

 

[Hardvark]

Actually they did run such a poll.

As you can see, the will of the people was to continue on with the modified version of the Tri government that had been ratified.

Thanks for that Bengeance. I shall cease to argue about the independence of our judiciary and find other things to occupy my mind.

On another point, is it just me or is it quite difficult finding out what's going on with the game. There's just so much information out there and so many different threads. I just stumbled by chance on the vote for the difficulty level. I was wondering if the low turnout in these polls is a result of people not really being aware that a poll is being held, rather than simply voter apathy - I mean, come on guys it's a bit early for the apathy to set in before the game's even started!

I know that simply looking at the poll forum should hopefully show you the latest poll. But if people have been posting on other threads in that forum the latest poll can slip down the page and easily be missed.

 

[Swissempire]

I wholeheartedly agree with the judicaries ruling.

 

[5star_US]

I don't know, but they probably thought that the game was being dragged on too much, so they probably ruled that way just to get things moving. What do I know though.

 

[Bengeance]

So how many of you guys plan on making it to the creation event tomorrow?

 

[5star_US]

not me. I got school then basketball, whoa I got a lot to do.

 

[5star_US]

So Iv'e gotten word that we are the Egyptians. There a few threads on what are flag should be, what our name is, our capitol etc. Also there is news on what starting tech we should use. As hawk-dove leader I suggest the military option, since that is part of the party manifesto. I suggest you check it out.

 

[Swissempire]

I support the agriculture path, because that syncs well with the second tenet of our manifesto

 

[Bengeance]

I think we need to go for Animal Husbandry, then hunting...if we get a religion that is nice but I like to explore and get to know our area more before we commite to a single strategy.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Greetings and salutations from a co-founder of another partee.

I also agree with Bengeance that it would be better to make idiots of ourselves in here, before going forth and declaring our idiocy to the rest of the citizens.

Our idiocy is out there for all to see.

We appear to share many of the same ideals and I foresee a potential mutually beneficial voting bloc. Just looks like we're less serious than you.

Anyway, just wanted to say howdy. Y'all come round to chat, ya hear?

 

[5star_US]

Yes, Mr. Kutzkov, I think you are a bit less serious.

 

[Bengeance]

For those of you who are not members of the Culturalists party I would like to direct you to a post that I made in that forum regarding the first turnchat and a member of the Demogame. I don't not intend this to be a personal attack on anyone, but it is my opinion on the actions of one member in relation to the game.

 

[5star_US]

Interesting stuff there Bengeance. I wasn't at the chat though so I can't say whether he was good or bad.

 

[5star_US]

Wow, man, you can't leave the demo game to long or you'll miss stuff. I just heard that DZ resigned from secretary of war.... and i think Greek Guy holds all the tri offices now... wow....

 

[Bengeance]

Yeah, I know. Losing DZ sucks, but we will survive without him. The game must go on.

 

[5star_US]

Words of comfort, Bengeance.