The Immortal Challenge 1: Apocalypto

[Sisiutil]

Regarding Louis: FINISH HIM! :thumbdown

Seriously, on the one hand you're complaining about the happiness cap, and on the other, you're going to let Louis live so his citizens can "yearn to rejoin their homeland" for turn after excruciating turn? You don't need a buffer; I find they never work anyway.

Paris will be a darn good city. Take it. If you're worried about Roman cultural pressure on Lyons, just raze it, unless it has a tasty resource on your side, in which case fight off Augustus' borders with libraries, temples, and so on.

The big danger here is that Louis may vassalize to Augustus, since they both have Feudalism and you don't. Hit Louis as fast and as hard as you can, finishing him while he's still mulling it over. You may want to prepare 2 stacks. If Augustus does become Louis' master, finish off Louis while holding off Augustus as best you can. You may want to keep Lyons just so you can let Augustus take it, maybe as a peace offering once Louis is dead.

 

[lilnev]

Good round. After your "bleak" comment, I was worried, but this looks good.

A small tip: if you want to make a trade, like CoL to Louis for Calendar, but the AI won't quite give it to you (he was close; Calendar isn't much more expensive than HBR), research Calendar yourself for a turn or two and then go back and ask again. They can sense when you've got something partially researched, and they'll discount it accordingly.

The second French war sounds fine, and should be straightforward. His west-coast city has no food: raze it.

I'm not sure if you'll be able to take Caesar. If you want to try, I'd say beeline Engineering for trebs + pikes + maces. I think you could hit him before he gets Chemistry. But he may get Gunpowder, and muskets give him the option to counter-attack your stack (unless you can keep it on hills/forests?). The other option would be to play for a peaceful victory, which would mean Paper to trade for MC, then head towards Liberalism and Democracy (you won't win the Lib race, but if you're planning to win peacefully you want to go there soon anyway). I think you have enough land to win a space race.

If you're going to fight Caesar, put the settler 1S of the central Copper to make a production city. If you're playing for peace, I like 3SW of the capital, poaching Corn and working Copper plus a ton of cottages. Actually I like both spots in either case, it's more a question of order.

peace,
lilnev

p.s. Thanks DaviddesJ!

p.p.s. I agree with Sisiutil: finish him.

 

[aelf]

You may want to keep Lyons just so you can let Augustus take it, maybe as a peace offering once Louis is dead.

You're learning

If Louis vassalises to Augustus, though, it would be a disaster. It would be the opening of the Roman floodgates on our empire. The good news is I don't think it's likely, given that Augustus hates Louis (different religion and close borders).

Let's see... Augustus' favourite civic is Representation, which isn't a bad one to be running till the end of the game. Once we get to Liberalism for Free Religion, he could become a good friend. So a peaceful game is possible. And, like lilnev said, we should head for Liberalism if we choose that path. The problem is sharing the continent with only one civ. That increases the chance of getting backstabbed, even if that civ is happy with us (Friendly might be good enough to prevent it, though). And isn't it a bit weird to be playing peaceful as Monty?

PS: Keeping Louis alive might really be good to create a buffer. See what I outlined above about sharing the continent with only one civ, especially when that civ is only cautious with us. With Louis alive, at least Augustus might focus his attention there instead of on us.

 

[Galileo44]

I think you should just kill Louis. Hit him quickly. I have never seen an AI vassilize in the first 10 turns of war. Then, if you want a peaceful rest of the game (on your continent), you could spam Augustus with missionaries of whichever religion you want to stick with for the future.

 

[Syndrome Zed]

You're learning

If Louis vassalises to Augustus, though, it would be a disaster. It would be the opening of the Roman floodgates on our empire. The good news is I don't think it's likely, given that Augustus hates Louis (different religion and close borders).

Let's see... Augustus' favourite civic is Representation, which isn't a bad one to be running till the end of the game. Once we get to Liberalism for Free Religion, he could become a good friend. So a peaceful game is possible. And, like lilnev said, we should head for Liberalism if we choose that path. The problem is sharing the continent with only one civ. That increases the chance of getting backstabbed, even if that civ is happy with us (Friendly might be good enough to prevent it, though). And isn't it a bit weird to be playing peaceful as Monty?

PS: Keeping Louis alive might really be good to create a buffer. See what I outlined above about sharing the continent with only one civ, especially when that civ is only cautious with us. With Louis alive, at least Augustus might focus his attention there instead of on us.

Even as bad as the AI is in fighting wars, is one city really going to make a dent in Augustus' ambitions? It looks like it would take all of a turn or two for Mighty Caesar to wipe his boots clean on Louis' robe if they decide to go at it. Given the hatred between the two, once you declare against Louis the second time I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Caesar decides to dogpile him. Odds are you wouldn't have a buffer very long if that happens . I think Sisiutil is right, you should just eliminate Louis and get his former people forgetting about him as soon as possible. Louis won't make much of a buffer militarily, and he won't be any use as a trading partner. You might as well just finish him off and either keep or raze his last city after you take Paris - razing might even give you a short span of turns without border tensions I think (don't take that as gospel though ).

EDIT: Also wanted to thank DaviddesJ as well for helping out with Photobucket!!

 

[cabert]

Are you serious? With Monty?

he is spiritual, which is one of the power traits for cultural.
this + sacrificial altar makes the infra very easy to get
+ you have good cottageable land.
it may be a little tough on immortal, though

 

[Melon Head]

Another option, if you're looking to be friendly with Augustus, is to get him in on the war with Louis. I think there're two separate bonuses for shared military struggle; one that will remain after the war, and one that only lasts for the duration of the war. I may be entirely wrong on that front, and if the only diplo bonus is one which expires at the end of the war, you shouldn't try it. The upside is that you'll get better relations with Augustus. The danger is that he takes Paris. Thus, you need to only do so if you're sure you can take Paris first (focus and I think it's manageable). The Ai likes to pillage and generally be dumb, at least for the first few turns. If you can also manage to snag Lyons and gift it to Augustus, that would be spectacular, and further improve your bonuses.

While I think sharing a continent with Augustus isn't a terribly great idea, I don't think it'll be that bad. You're almost to the point where you'll be discovering new and strange civs, and if you can get Augustus to hate them instead of you, you might even be able to trick him into a phony war with the weak AI on the other continent. Its very unlikely he'll kill that AI off-comps are terrible at inter-continental warfare, and if you can keep them at each other's throats, it'll keep you safer. Plus if you're ever worrying about your status with Augustus, you can declare war on the whipping boy. Augustus' navy will help keep the continent safe, making it an even less risky version of most phony wars.

 

[Sisiutil]

Another option, if you're looking to be friendly with Augustus, is to get him in on the war with Louis. I think there're two separate bonuses for shared military struggle; one that will remain after the war, and one that only lasts for the duration of the war. I may be entirely wrong on that front, and if the only diplo bonus is one which expires at the end of the war, you shouldn't try it. The upside is that you'll get better relations with Augustus. The danger is that he takes Paris. Thus, you need to only do so if you're sure you can take Paris first (focus and I think it's manageable). The Ai likes to pillage and generally be dumb, at least for the first few turns. If you can also manage to snag Lyons and gift it to Augustus, that would be spectacular, and further improve your bonuses.

While I think sharing a continent with Augustus isn't a terribly great idea, I don't think it'll be that bad. You're almost to the point where you'll be discovering new and strange civs, and if you can get Augustus to hate them instead of you, you might even be able to trick him into a phony war with the weak AI on the other continent. Its very unlikely he'll kill that AI off-comps are terrible at inter-continental warfare, and if you can keep them at each other's throats, it'll keep you safer. Plus if you're ever worrying about your status with Augustus, you can declare war on the whipping boy. Augustus' navy will help keep the continent safe, making it an even less risky version of most phony wars.

In the few games I've come up against Augustus, I've generally been able to get along with him. A shared religion certainly helps but is not essential; he's no fanatic. I have yet to have him declare war on me, even with shared borders. His favourite civic is one of the best ones in the game that you're likely to run for a long time, so if you go for Constitution & Representation and run it for a long time it will get him on your side.

 

[aelf]

Even as bad as the AI is in fighting wars, is one city really going to make a dent in Augustus' ambitions? It looks like it would take all of a turn or two for Mighty Caesar to wipe his boots clean on Louis' robe if they decide to go at it.

That's true. But the AI seems to take time to decide to do that, at least buying us a little time to tech up to Machinery

Even if we're to live in peace with Augustus, who sounds reasonable enough, we should keep our guard up until we reach Representation and Free Religion. We should build up our army and get our own crossbows and macemen. Asking Augustus to join in the war against Louis sounds good, but he might not agree since he's only cautious, and we have nothing to bribe him with. If he dogpiles Louis, well, that's good. We should be able to take Paris in several turns. The Roman can have Lyons.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

I disagree. Trying to par the AI in military, all the time, on this level, is not a good strategy. Louis and Augustus aren't problematic, failing to claim and use our own territory is. It's almost 1000 AD and there are barbarian states next to the capital? That's bad. There's place for one more city to the north, and another to the west. Once again, we need more workers. Why research Machinery? Instead we have a shot at Uni of Sankore, which is pretty good for a Spiritual civ.



At this point of the game, I will concentrate on developing territory and setting up some good warfare infrastructure, if I am to win domination (that's the goal of the game, isn't it?). Remember, Rome is not the problem. Rome isn't the solution either. The problem is the other continent and the solution is to be the strongest economy.

 

[oyzar]

I am pretty certain a civ cant vazalise to another civ they are not at war with if they are currently at war with you. Also killing off louis will make tech trading impossible. Though you should get his cities asap and then get optics imo.

 

[carl corey]

I am pretty certain a civ cant vazalise to another civ they are not at war with if they are currently at war with you. Also killing off louis will make tech trading impossible. Though you should get his cities asap and then get optics imo.

Nope, not true. That's how some wars start: you fight against civ A and it voluntarily becomes a vassal of civ B. If A and B were at peace before, it means B joins A's war against you.

Of course, if you're at peace with B and B is also at war with A, and A becomes a vassal of B, you'll be forced to make peace with A too. So bribing the Romans to go to war too may be a good idea, but I think aelf can wipe out the French before any "vassalization" happens.

 

[aelf]

Also killing off louis will make tech trading impossible.

Good point. But we might not be able to trade anything anytime soon anyway.

 

[Galileo44]

If you want more + with Ausustus, then you could get him to declare on Louis earlier the same turn that you kill Louis. Then there is no danger of him taking the cities you want.

 

[cabert]

If you want more + with Ausustus, then you could get him to declare on Louis earlier the same turn that you kill Louis. Then there is no danger of him taking the cities you want.

mutual struggle builds up
a one turn war isn't going to get a long lasting + diplomatically.

 

[Galileo44]

Will it get a +1 or not anything at all that lasts?

 

[Syndrome Zed]

Will it get a +1 or not anything at all that lasts?

I think you'll get a lasting +1 as long as there's one turn or more of fighting. If necessary he could always wait until the second turn to take the city.

 

[aelf]

I disagree. Trying to par the AI in military, all the time, on this level, is not a good strategy... Why research Machinery? Instead we have a shot at Uni of Sankore, which is pretty good for a Spiritual civ.

I can't make myself believe this. If we wipe out the French and choose to research Paper before Metal Casting and Machinery, how can we be sure that the Romans would not quickly decide that we're a soft target and declare war with overwhelming forces? And what if we don't manage to get the University?

I may have to do some more thinking before I can play the next round.

 

[lilnev]

... how can we be sure that the Romans would not quickly decide that we're a soft target and declare war with overwhelming forces?

You're the Jedi Master of diplomacy. Use the Force ("These are not the droids you're looking for.")

Seriously, I think unconquered sun's point is that the AI moves so fast on Immortal that you can't afford to be building an army just for the sake of the power graph. You need to be directing your hammers to workers and settlers and libraries and courthouses and such, or you won't keep up. Sometimes you have to trust the AI personalities. The fastest way to lose is to get DoWed when you aren't expecting it. But the slower way to lose is to be too conservative and then find yourself way behind in tech and unable to trade your way back.

Besides, you'll never keep up with his power anyway. By the time you've got those macemen, he'll be promoting his to grenadiers, virtually for free.

Trust the Force, aelf. Let it guide your actions.

peace,
lilnev

 

[darrelljs]

I don't think Settlers are the way to keep up on Immortal...Workers sure you don't want to be working unimproved tiles and you need enough to keep that from happening. But if you are at the point where you can take on more cities it is better to take them from the AI because a) they are better developed, and b) it hurts the AI. Filling in a dot map later on and at leisure is fine, but secure the continent first. Barbarian cities can often be neutralized by fortifying a couple of units right next to it. Just my $0.02, this approach has worked for me in the past but I realize there are other alternative and possibly better ways to win

Also, I wouldn't worry about catching up with the other AIs if you own this landmass. Remember, with deep beelining you will be able to tech trade back to parity quickly even if the other continent is far more advanced. You did what looked to me like wasteful trades early, but after reading VoU's thread it seems that since Rome and France are unknown across the ocean, they won't count towards your WFYABTA limit with the new worlders!

Darrell