The new crazed

[Fafnir13]

The few times I've managed to make use of the Baron, I've had some difficulty getting a real lycanthropic army going. Ravenous werewolves aren't the toughest units around, so you need some exceedingly careful handling to get them upgraded.
Now that the AI gets to say what they do, it becomes more of a dicey situation. Given that it's already up to chance even get one spawned, it really is making lycanthropy dead in the game...

Just to reiterate a few points that no one's responded to:

The new enraged is a passive experience requiring nothing of the player and not really allowing the player to do anything anyways.

There is no reason to use crazed units. Any benefit or strategy they might be use in can be done better with non-crazed units. Mostly an issue with lunatics, as the odd unit with crazed doesn't really have any effect on the game.

Just to spout some other stuff (cause I feel like it):

Heroes should be immune to crazed. It is just not fun to lose a hero to an inept AI at random.

We still need a permanent solution. Every other negative promotion has some way to counter it fully and completely. Why does crazed/enraged deserve special treatment?

 

[Verdian]

The new enraged is a passive experience requiring nothing of the player and not really allowing the player to do anything anyways.

You did not have any control over your units when they turned barbarian, either. I think your issue is that there is no way to prevent it, which was brought up.

There is no reason to use crazed units.

Lunatics need a way to keep them in check. As I mentioned before, I think Asylums should prevent them from going crazy.

Heroes should be immune to crazed. It is just not fun to lose a hero to an inept AI at random.

Agreed. It is very frustrating.

We still need a permanent solution.

Yep. I like the idea of it wearing off after a while. Of course, that is not permenant if they are crazed, only enraged (or is it the other way around? I get them confused. )

 

[Fafnir13]

You did not have any control over your units when they turned barbarian, either. I think your issue is that there is no way to prevent it, which was brought up.

It's a bit more then that. Under the old enraged, there was a number of things the player could do in reaction to a crazed/enraged unit, even without loyalty to fix it. Get him out of your core territories (to avoid an eventual pillaging barbarian), use as cannon fodder, bum rush for loyalty in order to "save" the unit, et cetera. Even once the percent chance to turn barbarian did trigger, you were still left with a unit you needed to kill.
The new one only requires you to sit back and watch until the silly thing gets itself killed. See what I'm getting at?

Yep. I like the idea of it wearing off after a while. Of course, that is not permenant if they are crazed, only enraged (or is it the other way around? I get them confused. )

I do to too sometimes.
Crazed is the promo that randomly Causes enraged. Enraged is the one that makes your unit run around Everywhere. That help?

 

[Iceciro]

The OO thematically should have some way of dealing with crazy people, since in the lore in the Civopedia, they use crazy people all the time to talk to the OOs.

I still don't see why a spell that removes the promotion, both the bonus damage and the psychosis, isn't a good idea. I understand the old way was sort of an "have my cake and eat my cake too" sort of deal, but the new Crazed, especially for Lunatics, is more of a "Cake is a lie" sort of deal. I just don't build Lunatics because I cant really even get them out of the Asylum city before they start running around madly, frothing at the mouth like dogs with rabies only to be put down just as fast. This also means I don't build Asylums and don't collect more than one Chaos Mana.

The new Crazed/Enraged takes away from strategy, rather than adding do it.

 

[SwampCow]

I really, really like the idea of the "Straitjacket" Promo coming from OO Asylums- they synergize well with the civs that start with Chaos mana, and it'd honestly be really nice to see the Overlords doing something that doesn't NEED a water map to be highly helpful. I'd even really like to see Orderlies... low strength units who have a sole purpose of restraining Enraged units in an AoE.

Haha, kill the orderly with an assassin and watch the nutters run wild.

 

[Jules.lt]

sounds fun

 

[Brokenbone]

Maybe building an Asylum simply attracts Lunatics - for free, on a % chance every turn. "A Lunatic has joined your Army!" No real "events" message, just thinking like how Heroes may join you in the Black Tower scenario, or how Great People get born. Alternately, do it through Events in Asylum-enhanced cities (some kind of murderous psychopath overpowered his guards at the asylum type message, choice to squash him or arm him, type of thing).

Since they're likely to run off and cause trouble somewhere, dying quite quickly, it may be that their randomly popping up for free makes better sense than spending hammers on what are more or less suicide-type attackers.

If however some sort of controlling, "calming" method were made available through unit, spell, building, promotion, whatever, then a "get them for free" mechanic would not work too well. Again, unreliable troops aren't worth the hammers... altering their price to reflect that unreliability, even down to zero, may make sense (especially if Lunatics can't be some exploity method to upgrade to something else cheaply).

 

[notque]

Why do we want Lunatics to be sane?

if anything, an Asylum should Allow fortified in the city to lkeep crazed in line, and nothing else.

This actually has a gameplay need to it. It allows all crazed armies to have some units to defend cities, instead of having to make a pesky non crazed unit.

This would actually fit a problem, seem thematically correct, not be too powerful, and give you guys some way of at least keeping the units if you want them. Fortify them in a city without making this awesome new mechanic worthless.

 

[SwampCow]

Maybe building an Asylum simply attracts Lunatics - for free, on a % chance every turn. "A Lunatic has joined your Army!" No real "events" message, just thinking like how Heroes may join you in the Black Tower scenario, or how Great People get born. Alternately, do it through Events in Asylum-enhanced cities (some kind of murderous psychopath overpowered his guards at the asylum type message, choice to squash him or arm him, type of thing).

I like this idea. I might actually build Asylums then. Currently, even when Bals or using OO, I never use it.

 

[Brokenbone]

Someone mentioned way earlier in the thread that Asylums aren't actually meant to cure anyone, i.e., they're not a charitable hospital type thing. They're an Overlords special, and OO is strong in prophecy, madness, dreams, and similar themes. That is, they're not humanitarians, they're presumably DELIGHTED to have the occasional "visionary", i.e., someone "touched by the gods" in the "is actually raving insane" sense of the word. Whoopee, someone bonkers, and thereby closer to the divine, etc.

This may mean that Asylums don't really keep anyone "in line", they are really just a magnet for psychopaths, serial killers, insane doomsday street corner prophets, whatever. Again, the feature associated with them is that anyone built in the city might end up with the "Crazed" promotion, despite the fact that you'd normally expect Training Yards, Archery Ranges, Stables etc. to process "normal" recruits. If having an Asylum in town means you might from time to time get a "Crazed" Horseman from your stables, what's the logical conclusion you'd reach, for "where the heck did this recruit come from?"

Chances are it's not your average group of citizens enlisting, it's some conscripts from the Asylum.

 

[Fafnir13]

Why do we want Lunatics to be sane?

Because they are units that cost hammers they are currently not worth, meaning they never get built when you're doing anything other then screwing around, meaning they are currently a waste of bits in the game.

if anything, an Asylum should Allow fortified in the city to lkeep crazed in line, and nothing else.
This actually has a gameplay need to it. It allows all crazed armies to have some units to defend cities, instead of having to make a pesky non crazed unit.
This would actually fit a problem, seem thematically correct, not be too powerful, and give you guys some way of at least keeping the units if you want them. Fortify them in a city without making this awesome new mechanic worthless.

So, are we talking about lunatics or all crazed units? Lunatics are terrible defenders, having less defense strength then attack. I also seems rather foolish to relegate such a unit to being only usable as a defensive unit. Collateral damage works well only when you mass the unit type and send them in like fodder. It is especially useful for assaulting enemy emplacements/opposing stacks you meet on the field. Your suggestion of only being able to reliably use lunatics in cities with asylums fits neither of these.
First off, you never have any guarantee that an enemy stack will approach the city in question. You could certainly build an asylum in all your border cities and build mass lunatics in every single one, but now it's being an extreme waste of hammers as well as unit upkeep. Units need to be mobile, both on the offensive and defensive.
If we're talking about all crazed units, their appearance is so far and few between that no one would really need to worry about them. Oh look, a worthless unit randomly spawned. Meh, guess I'd better build one more.

All right, let's talk compromise a bit. I've come round to not minding the odd crazed unit operating under the current rule. Mutation was already a dangerous spell, so meh. Spawning mutated happens rather infrequently, so meh (just don't let heroes spawn with crazed. Block that somehow.). Dungeon exploration is easy enough to relegate to a fodder unit, so meh once again.
Where I cannot accept it is on Lunatics and on AC 90. Those are the only points where I find the new enraged causing irreparable and game breaking harm. Thoughts?

 

[SwampCow]

Someone mentioned way earlier in the thread that Asylums aren't actually meant to cure anyone, i.e., they're not a charitable hospital type thing. They're an Overlords special, and OO is strong in prophecy, madness, dreams, and similar themes. That is, they're not humanitarians, they're presumably DELIGHTED to have the occasional "visionary", i.e., someone "touched by the gods" in the "is actually raving insane" sense of the word. Whoopee, someone bonkers, and thereby closer to the divine, etc.

This may mean that Asylums don't really keep anyone "in line", they are really just a magnet for psychopaths, serial killers, insane doomsday street corner prophets, whatever. Again, the feature associated with them is that anyone built in the city might end up with the "Crazed" promotion, despite the fact that you'd normally expect Training Yards, Archery Ranges, Stables etc. to process "normal" recruits. If having an Asylum in town means you might from time to time get a "Crazed" Horseman from your stables, what's the logical conclusion you'd reach, for "where the heck did this recruit come from?"

Chances are it's not your average group of citizens enlisting, it's some conscripts from the Asylum.

I am not sure anyone is saying otherwise. Putting all the thematic and backstory fluff aside, the building, like any other, is in there to perform a function or trigger an effect/affect. In the case of the asylum, it is there to allow you to create lunatics. That is fine. But, if I am not mistaken (again, I don't use the building and maybe the effect is Chaos based) it also grants insane randomly to built units. This makes it more of a hindrance than anything else. Why on earth would someone want to gamble crazed/insane on an important unit like a Shadow, Cultist or (irony aside) berzerker? It has always seemed to be too much trouble for the ability to create a unit which is sporadic at best. I would think a simple tweak to crazed and insane would seem to address this.

 

[Brokenbone]

They're decent buildings in a science powerhouse city (thought it's +15% research), but run a pretty horrible risk of polluting units if you put one in a unit production centre.

 

[Sarisin]

All right, let's talk compromise a bit. I've come round to not minding the odd crazed unit operating under the current rule. Mutation was already a dangerous spell, so meh. Spawning mutated happens rather infrequently, so meh (just don't let heroes spawn with crazed. Block that somehow.). Dungeon exploration is easy enough to relegate to a fodder unit, so meh once again.
Where I cannot accept it is on Lunatics and on AC 90. Those are the only points where I find the new enraged causing irreparable and game breaking harm. Thoughts?

I agree with you about AC 90. It is broken, plain and simple. That needs to be fixed. If anyone adding to this thread has not experienced THAT sheer joy, you need to have a game where it reaches that milestone. Sadly, my current game is at AC 67 with lots of time on the clock (epic speed) and I'm afraid it will be game over when it hits 90 as I just don't want to have to deal with the unit monkeyshines again.

On Lunatics, I have to say it is interesting reading, but I seldom have OO as my religion and therefore, no Lunatics. I will defer to the Lunatic experts on this one.

However, I think you also still have an issue with the Baron and his fuzzy friends. I have stated more than a few times how I feel about this the way it is now: either do something to improve the current immediate Enraged departure of Ravenous Werewolves, or eliminate Lychantropy from the game.

I agree that Heroes should be immune to Crazed/Enraged. Time to stock up on Adventurers!

 

[Verdian]

Someone mentioned way earlier in the thread that Asylums aren't actually meant to cure anyone, i.e., they're not a charitable hospital type thing....This may mean that Asylums don't really keep anyone "in line", they are really just a magnet for psychopaths...

I shortened what you said a bit for space. I agree with your first sentance and disagree with the second. I do not think that Asylums should cure the insanity, but I do think they are able to control their inmates. Hannah the Irin's pedia entry (I think) gives the best description of how the Overlords communicate to the priests. They do restrain the speakers, and in the Asylums I am sure they do the same. It is not a building that just lets the insane run through it's halls, it is a place of research and experimentation to harness the insanity the Overlords occasionally use to speak to their followers.

Right now, the only use for Lunatics I can see is if you are being attacked. Then you can build Lunatics and they will wander your lands harassing the enemy. So there needs to be a way to secure these Lunatics until such a time that they are needed, or drastically lower the hammer cost so they can be pumped out quickly. Otherwise, there are many more useful options.

The AC 90 event, as it is now, is really annoying (and not in a fun, challenging way). I think it should be switched back to making the units barbarian. That is not to say that I think Enraged (thanks, Fafnir! )should be changed back to the way it is (I prefer this new way), just that the AC 90 event should be.

 

[Ranos]

Here's my newest idea in all it's insanity. A bit of a long post but one I hope will make everybody happy.

Crazed and Enraged

Crazed and Enraged are replaced or altered as follows:

Insane

Replaces current Crazed for Lunatics, Asylums and Chaos Mana. Units can also get Insane from random events, lairs and Mutation.

• [*]Inflicts Crazed on the Unit (100% chance each turn to apply Crazed)​

Enraged

Ravenous Werewolves start with Enraged. Units can also get Enraged from random events, lairs and Mutation.

• [*]+20% Strength​
  [*]Randomly inflicts Crazed on the Unit (50% chance each turn to apply Crazed)​

Crazed

Units can get Crazed from Insane, Enraged, random events, lairs and Mutation.

• [*]+1 Movement​
  [*]+20% Strength​
  [*]Removed after combat​
  [*]Unit is controlled by the AI and acts with extreme aggression, attacking with reckless abandon any units which come within about 4 tiles​

Madness

Replaces current Enraged for the AC 90 event.

• [*]Removes the Loyalty promotion when first applied to the unit​
  [*]50% chance to resist Loyalty spell​
  [*]+1 Movement​
  [*]+20% Strength​
  [*]50% chance to be removed after combat​
  [*]5% chance each turn for unit to become Barbarian​

Additional promotions, spells, etc

Straightjacket (Spell)

Orderly unit starts with this spell. Not available to any other unit.

• [*]Only effects units with the Insane promotion.​
  [*]Removes Crazed from any Insane unit in same and adjacent tiles as caster.​
  [*]Adds Straightjacket promotion to any Insane unit in same or adjacent tile as caster.​

Realease (Spell)

Orderly unit starts with this spell. Not available to any other unit.

• [*]Removes Straightjacket promotion from any unit in same and adjacent tiles as caster.​

Straightjacket (Effect)

Can only be added to units with the Insane promotion.

• [*]Unit cannot become Crazed.​
  [*]-50% Strength​

Blooded (Spell)

Blooded Werewolf starts with this spell. Not available to any other unit.

• [*]Removes Blooded spell from the caster​
  [*]Removes Enraged and Crazed promotions from caster.​

Calm (Spell)

Any unit with Medic II starts with this spell.

• [*]Removes Crazed promotion from any unit in same and adjacent tiles as caster.​

Promotions, spells, etc that need to be altered

Cure Disease

Remove the word 'Diseased' so the spell is just called 'Cure'. It keeps all of it's existing effects and adds the following:

• [*]Removes Insane promotion from any unit in same tile as caster.​

Loyalty

Loyalty keeps all of it's existing effects and adds the following:

• [*]-50% chance for the unit to get the Madness promotion.​
  [*]-50% chance unit will turn Barbarian.​

New Units

Orderly

• [*]Requires Asylum​
  [*]Starts with Straightjacket and Release spells​
  [*]3 Strength​
  [*]2 Movement​
  [*]Costs 60 Hammers​

I think that's everything that's needed but I may be missing something.

I put the Blooded spell in because Enraged would be transferred to Blooded Werewolves. If I'm wrong, then the Blooded spell isn't needed.

Units with Madness can still turn Barbarian even with the Loyalty spell cast on them. I think the removal of existing Loyalty and the chance to resist Loyalty are cool effects and would make the AC 90 event more chaotic, but those could be taken off without affecting my system too much. I do think that Loyalty should not guarantee that a unit does not become barbarian though.

Those of us who like the current system still get the same effects with units running around like mad. Those who prefer the old system now get a way to manage the negative effects of units running around on their own and the AC 90 event sort of goes back to the way it was.

How does this sound to everyone?

 

[Sarisin]

Bravo, Ranos, some excellent, well-thought out ideas there!

The only problem I would have with it is that it appears the Ravenous Werewolves are still immediately turned over to the control of the AI when they are created. I hate to say it, but based on my experience so far, their prospect in even becoming Blooded Werewolves, is dim. If they made it there, I like your suggestion.

But with the AI in control you have that bugged targeting mechanism that means your Ravenous Werewolf is more likely to die than be promoted.

I would still like to see control returned to the player for this.

Otherwise, I think you nailed many of these!

 

[Verdian]

I really hate to be dismissive of such a nice, long post, but I don't like most of the ideas you posted, Ranos. I like the idea of Calm, as that is a way to turn crazed units normal again without making it a permanent cure for Crazed. I like the idea that Loyalty just makes it less likely for a unit to go Enraged or change sides, as that way there is still no cure all, but the spell is not useless. That combined with Calm would work well.

I do not think the Asylums need units and spells and what not. That is a lot of work for the team and for the AI to understand. Just make Enraged not trigger when the unit is in the city. Calm and Loyalty would do a lot to prevent the units from going crazy on the way to the battlefield, and if one runs off rarely, that is fine.

No spell should permently remove Crazed (or Insanity, or any similiar Enraged granting promotion). The rest I do not think is needed.

 

[Fafnir13]

How does this sound to everyone?

Really really complicated. That's what I dislike about the new enraged. It broke multiple systems (Lunatics, Lycanthropy, AC 90) and any potential fix using the current rules seems to require all sorts of hoops to jump through. Your ideas certainly aren't bad. Orderlies ushering around a hoard of lunatics sounds rather intriguing, but only with some other rebalancing like lowered hammer costs

Keeping with the idea of orderlies, why not simply make every lunatic in a stack containing orderlies act like it had the old crazed/enraged plus loyalty. Just so long as it ends turn in a tile with an orderly, you are free to use it like normal. I think it's a fairly simple system that even new players could use.
Be simpler to just switch back to the old system, but I don't think that's going to happen...

Ravenous werewolves do lose the enraged upon upgrade (as it required a combat). They do not come with crazed so it does not spawn again.

On loyalty, 50% chance of not working? Did I read that right? Nuh uh, that's not a counter. That's more die rolling. More potential epic failures when there shouldn't be one. Look at it from the eyes of the well prepared player. The went to all the effort of getting loyalty cast on their unit on the off chance that it might come under some effect that would convert it. Then, against all odds, the unit converts anyways. It's like giving summon spells a chance to fail.

AC 90 needs some work in general. Having a custom buff would certainly help it stand out. If I read right, Madness effectively works the same as the old one, save with some fancy resistances. Removing the loyalty spell does seem like something of a cheap blow, given that it takes away the entire idea of preparation. Isn't that part of a strategy game? I understand the desire to make the Armageddon events scarier, but there are better ways of doing that then making it impossible to prepare for them.
Other than that, I do like the promotion, especially the name. A chance of going away after combat helps to make it much more of a lasting problem/benefit.

 

[Ranos]

I realized I did forget one thing in my post. The Balseraphs need a UU similar to Orderly since they'll also get a number of Insane units.

@ Sarasin

Ravenous Werewolves wouldn't immediately be turned over to the AI. They would have the New Enraged which would have a 50% chance to give the New Crazed each turn. Crazed is what causes them to run around on their own. This could be countered with priests who could cast Calm on the Werewolf to removed Crazed. I could also live with a lower % chance for them to get Crazed.

Also, the targeting system would still need to be fixed for the stuff in my post to be worthwhile. If the targeting isn't fixed, then my whole post can be comepletely forgotten and Enraged should just go back to what it used to be.

@ Verdian

Orderlies and their spells could be removed without major problems. The point of them though is that Straightjacket would be a permanent solution to Crazed until you decided to remove it where Calm would have to be cast every turn.

I could also live without Insane being removed from a unit. That was mostly just a thought for civs that couldn't get Orderlies but I guess the occasional Insane unit wouldn't be that bad.

@ Fafnir13

With my idea, you have two ways to control your Lunatics. Either have a priest in the stack with them to cast Calm every turn (a solution which requires a bit of micro but would leave your units at full strength) or have an Orderly who casts Straightjacket once (a solution which leave you free to send them on a multiturn trip without constant supervision but which reduces their strength. Units in straightjackets can't fight since their arms are tied up).

I guess it would be simpler just having an Orderly in the stack prevent or remove the crazed promotion, but I think it should only work with Insane units, and not units that have just been given Crazed or have Enraged.

With Werewolves, the New Enraged is a permanent prmotion so would not be removed after combat. This Enraged randomly gives the New Crazed which is what makes the unit run around on its own. Blooded Werewolves would need a way to remove Enraged so the wouldn't start running around on their own.

I also don't want to just give them the New Crazed or you could have a preiest following the Baron and other Werewolves around to cast Calm on the new Ravenous Werewolves that show up and then you can do whatever you want with them without threat of losing control. This would take some of the fun out of it.

As I said at the end of my post, the removal of Loyalty and the chance of it not working could be removed. Loyalty might prevent Madness from getting put on your unit and if your unit does get Madness, Loyalty might prevent it from turning barbarian, but there are no guarantees. I think that's one of the main reasons the team changed Enraged. It was far too easy to counter it and gain some free strength and movement.