The new patch and Arabia

[aatami]

Arabia: Bazaar now gives 2 gold on oil/oasis.

I was just wondering, did they:
1. Change the bazaar to give +2 gold on oil and oasis instead of the double luxuries,
or 2. Have it give +2 gold on oil and oasis on top of the double luxuries?

If no. 1 is the right answer, don't you think that they nerfed Arabia way too much for no apparent reason? I mean come on, they took away the reason to even play Arabia, on top of making the bazaar probably the worst UB in the game.

Any thoughts?

 

[eazyseeker]

Judging by the fact that in TBC (the mod the devs got most of the inspiration for this patch from) the Bazaar adds +2G on oasis ON TOP of giving double luxuries, I think it's number #2

 

[kamex]

There is already an achievement based on #2 so i'm pretty sure it will be #2

 

[Ianwill93]

I hope they keep it, but they might've changed it so that Arabia's Oil bonus stands out and they use "powerful" Camel Archers to Tanks because Tanks got a buff. I hope not.

 

[apocalypse105]

If you look at steam there is a achievement:
rab Trader
Trade a luxury resource to another Civ that you earned through a city with a Bazaar.

It is possibility 2 that the bazar gets a extra. They probably want to make arabia the oil king.

I have never seen a achievements removed from a game i only have seen that they add more.

 

[Furycrab]

I'm tempted to say it's number 1. The steam achievement can be changed, the problem with the Bazaar right now is that it's easily OP compared to many other buildings, especially on bigger maps.

An extra resource is 300g over 30 turns of 10gpt for each resource you manage to sell. Compare it to say... The Papermaker or the Wat, which give an extra 3 gpt or 3 Culture compared to the "base" building.

They could have messed with the AI and have it treat your arabian resources differently, since they are sorta "free" but between changing the AI or just taking out the mechanic...

The change will def change Arabia from being a top contender to very middle of the pack though .

 

[Prince ByTor]

I thought number 1. The only reason I thought that is because with the patch happiness is harder to come by, so I assumed they wouldn't want Arabia to be able to trade bazaar luxs for other civs luxs all over the place and become a happiness monster. Here's hoping for number 2...

 

[ratatosk]

There's nothing in that achievement that specifically implies that the bazaar needs to give double luxuries. You just need to 1) have a city with a bazaar and a luxury and 2) trade that luxury to another civ. No need to change anything.

 

[apocalypse105]

There's nothing in that achievement that specifically implies that the bazaar needs to give double luxuries. You just need to 1) have a city with a bazaar and a luxury and 2) trade that luxury to another civ. No need to change anything.

it says :

Trade a luxury resource to another Civ that you earned through a city with a Bazaar.

 

[Martin Alvito]

The precise wording of the update notes seems to suggest #1.

Also suggestive is the fact that luxuries took a nerf, which makes additional copies much more valuable than they were previously.

This would be a shame, because Arabia would become a strong competitor for worst civ in the game if #1 is true. The UA and UB would both be terrible, leaving only a mediocre UU that is outclassed by the Keshik/Khan combo. The result would be that there would never be cause to voluntarily play the civ.

 

[Babri]

The precise wording of the update notes seems to suggest #1.

Also suggestive is the fact that luxuries took a nerf, which makes additional copies much more valuable than they were previously.

This would be a shame, because Arabia would become a strong competitor for worst civ in the game if #1 is true. The UA and UB would both be terrible, leaving only a mediocre UU that is outclassed by the Keshik/Khan combo. The result would be that there would never be cause to voluntarily play the civ.

Look at the patch notes carefully.

Civilization Unique Abilities

• Arabia: Bazaar now gives 2 gold on oil/oasis.
• America: Remove river start bias.
• America: Increase plot buy modifier to 50% from 25%.
• China: Great General trait reduced to 50% from 100%.
• Babylon: Great Scientist trait reduced to 50% from 100%.
• Germany: Now receives a 25% discount on land unit maintenance.
• Ottoman: Now receives a 67% discount on naval unit maintenance, and can upgrade Galley’s to Trireme’s.

As we can see additional benifit is added to Ottomans & Germany. When it is changed, it is clearly mentioned like in the case of China, Babylon & America. I hope it clears the the confusion.

 

[GenjiKhan]

It's obviously why there is so many confusion about it. Just look where the word "now" is in each phrase. if they wrote something like this "Arabia:Now Bazaar gives 2 gold on oil/oasis." there wouldn't be so many confusions. Grammar rules isn't easy to understand,but ignoring it is an disaster.

 

[Furycrab]

The precise wording of the update notes seems to suggest #1.

Also suggestive is the fact that luxuries took a nerf, which makes additional copies much more valuable than they were previously.

This would be a shame, because Arabia would become a strong competitor for worst civ in the game if #1 is true. The UA and UB would both be terrible, leaving only a mediocre UU that is outclassed by the Keshik/Khan combo. The result would be that there would never be cause to voluntarily play the civ.

Well the difference is between being almost uncontested #1 Civ when used by an experienced player and being somewhere in the 10-20 spot? The UA is getting a small buff with the patch with Tanks being more valuable, the UB right now is bordering on OP, and the Camel archer since it's not getting nerfed it can't do worse than it is now.

So like I posted earlier I tend to think that they are just getting rid of the whole double lux mechanic... but I do agree that 2gold per oil/oasis is a bit on the weak side now.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Well the difference is between being almost uncontested #1 Civ when used by an experienced player and being somewhere in the 10-20 spot?

Huh? Arabia is well down the list unless you're playing OCC. France, Babylon, Siam, Songhai and Mongolia are all pretty clearly better for general use right now. Arabia hasn't been winning HoF competitions where civ choice is open, and has only been competitive in Cultural games.

As far as the argument about wording: there are several changes worded, "now" and several other changes worded, "now also". The intent of the second changes is clear; it follows that the implied intent of the former wording is that the original mechanics have been replaced entirely. The changes where wholesale replacement is clearly the intent of the developers are all worded "now".

It doesn't necessarily follow that all "now" usages were meant to be interpreted that way, but it is suggestive.

 

[aatami]

Look at the patch notes carefully.

As we can see additional benifit is added to Ottomans & Germany. When it is changed, it is clearly mentioned like in the case of China, Babylon & America. I hope it clears the the confusion.

Thank you, good to hear #1 isn't a possibility.

 

[awesome]

it is still a possibility:

• Oxford University now gives 3 additional science.
• Great Lighthouse now also provides a free Lighthouse in the city where it was built.
• Great library now gives 3 additional science, and provides a free Library in the city where it was built.
• Porcelain tower now additionally increases the Science granted when completing Research Agreements by 50%.
• Hanging Gardens now give 10 Food instead of 1 population per city and Happiness.
• Great Wall now obsoletes with Dynamite instead of metallurgy and gives 3 Culture. Additionally, a free Wall is provided in the city where it was built.
• Eiffel Tower now give 5 Happiness plus 1 for every 2 Policies adopted.
• Chichen Itza now grants an additional 4 Happiness.
• The Colossus now gives an additional 5 gold.
• Notre Dame now gives 10 Happiness, up from 5, and 3 Culture.
• Big Ben hurry modifier reduced to 15% from 25% but now gives a flat 4 gold.
  Civilization Unique Abilities
• Arabia: Bazaar now gives 2 gold on oil/oasis.
• Germany: Now receives a 25% discount on land unit maintenance.
• Ottoman: Now receives a 67% discount on naval unit maintenance, and can upgrade Galley’s to Trireme’s.

there are a few places where it says, "now also" and "now...additional". there are also a few places where it says, "now...instead". all three of the civilizations quoted just say "now". even though it probably doesn't, this could technically mean that they're changing the abilities completely. i wouldn't have really given it much thought if it hadn't have been brought up by someone else, but here we are.
it's also kind of weird that they would add an advantage to one powerful building (bazaar) and take one away from another (wat) in the same patch, so that's another thing you have to think about. but then again, they could've just decided that losing some happiness was worth a little bit of gold.

so basically, the jury's still out on what this means exactly.

 

[Furycrab]

Huh? Arabia is well down the list unless you're playing OCC. France, Babylon, Siam, Songhai and Mongolia are all pretty clearly better for general use right now. Arabia hasn't been winning HoF competitions where civ choice is open, and has only been competitive in Cultural games.

As far as the argument about wording: there are several changes worded, "now" and several other changes worded, "now also". The intent of the second changes is clear; it follows that the implied intent of the former wording is that the original mechanics have been replaced entirely. The changes where wholesale replacement is clearly the intent of the developers are all worded "now".

It doesn't necessarily follow that all "now" usages were meant to be interpreted that way, but it is suggestive.

I don't think it's better at HOF competitions because money doesn't give you a clear victory path, but in terms of win/success% it's certainly up there since it's very easy to convert all the extra gold into a winning advantage. I could be wrong, but overall I've felt playing Arabia was easier than most other civs... and when you factor that they are adding positive modifiers for trading, having extra resources can be huge.

 

[vexing]

Landed Elite now provides 1 Happiness at every 10 Citizens in each City.
Tradition Finisher: +15% Growth and +2 Food in each city.

here's a case where the naked now clearly implies complete replacement of the previous mechanic. there are others as well. #1 is going to be it. given the presumably increased value of luxuries, it would be really weird if they were giving some additional benefit to an already overpowered unique building. the trend in this patch has been nerfing of overpowered things like meritocracy's gp, landed elites food bonus.

 

[aatami]

So it's settled... Arabia will be far the worst civ in the game, and far more worse than any other civ.
What a pitty, though I know that the devs will probably fix this in the next patch.

 

[Randall Turner]

<snip>
so basically, the jury's still out on what this means exactly.

No matter how we parse it, it still comes down to this.