The Realms Beyond - Succession Game Discussions

[Liquidated]

I'll go for it. the 72 hour played is key as that is a very relaxed pace.

hmm interesting setup. What overall difficulty would this be? I'd vote prince with the restrictions.

As for raw traits we want abilities that are as land improvement independant as possible.

Agressive is the win there was we'll be in wars just to get started.

To that end we want a UU that dove tails with agressive meaning a melee unit. Let me look at rome again...

posting now just to hold my place in line lolol.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Gaspar~]

Aztecs might be the way to go, Rome's not going to work because Praets need Iron. Keshiks would be pretty optimal, except... you need a worker to hook up horses. I don't really think you're going to manage it without stealing an early worker, so an early fake war as soon as someone has a worker at a border edge might be the way to go. If you go Aztec, I guess an early Jag rush or Inca with a quecha rush might be the way to go. Funny that the worker would be a greater prize than the city.

Good luck with it.

 

[Liquidated]

yeah agreed there on the resourceless UU's being nice but if we do not have a worker by the time are geting ironworking, we are going to suffer anyway.

really depends on the size of the map as early UU's are going to be relatively worthless with too much space around civs.

hmm head hurts lol. This set of restrictions really bends the game such that I need to really study the leaders in depth to see which is most viable.

Prolly get a bit of sleep before staring at the sevlopedia again Been a rough day.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Drasca]

Liquid, I'm glad you're in. You're quite right about not having a worker by iron working too, and prince is about right for difficulty. I've done this on monarch, but that was with persia and a very early aggressive start on a small great plains map.

I've had a LOT of success doing early worker poaches. It isn't too hard, but you have to be very underhanded about it. i.e. watch for their resources, wait at their cultural borders, and declare war when their worker has already committed its movement points. I cannot guarantee a worker poach within my first 30 turns, but I'll definitely try.

This game will *not* be played on islands. Ok, Maybe archipelago if there's low sea, but I doubt it.

Resourceless UU's definitely have some advantages, but so do just plain awesome UU's like Tokugawa's Samurai (2 First strikes on a CRIII 8str maceman... that is sick), or Isabella's Conquistador's 50% vs melee, which negates over half of the pikeman's advantage when combat strength promotions are considered (Knight's base 10 scales up faster than the Pikeman's base 6).

I cannot guarantee worker in my 30 turns, but we *will* have resources connected for the UU's, or use resourceless means to do so, such as upgrading melee units with CRIII promotions via +xp civics and barracks to City Raider III Riflemen, then conquering a city that already has these resources hooked up.

 

[Liquidated]

ok well got some sleep so can see clearer.

leader to pick really has tons to do with the map so nailing it down now is not really that wise.

to narrow the field down...
the early offensive UU's are not good in larger maps so I steer clear of peeps like HC and monty.

izzy and toku seem interesting as they do have really nice mid game UU's

toku gets hit with the organized trait which is ug but has a sweet melee UU and agressive to back them up. I really do not like organized as a low difficulty trait since civc costs are seldom crippling.. In toku's case though that allows us to hang out in the $$ civics like vass and theo longer for some really feasome out-of-the-box samis.

I really like the agressive trait in that innate combat one allows for some truely flexible units.

More I think of toku in that light, the more I like him. Also, if you play toku you'll not have him as your neighbor! Seems every SG's I'm in has toku and monty as neighbors. it's maddening.

Izzy is spiritual and expansive... spiritual is good for inital religion grab as we'll need the happiness. The anarcy free means we can swap out the costly civics like theo and vas with no compuncion... imo better trait than organized.

Expansive - who can EVER complain about +2 health???

Izzy's UU, as you said, is just sweet. The lack of agressive trait is offset in that the conqes is mounted and wouldn;t get the extra combat 1 anyway.

Both start with a warrior which owns for the early elim/poach.

So yeah toku or izzy sounds good. They both have very strong traits for this variant. Smaller maps toku, larger izzy.

oh and it's just Liq or Liqudated... The name is based on a really lame accountant pun. nothing to do with liquids in a phyical sense.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Conroe]

Aztecs might be the way to go, Rome's not going to work because Praets need Iron. Keshiks would be pretty optimal, except... you need a worker to hook up horses.

Don't be too concerned about not having a resource for your units. If you plop a Settler down on top of a resource, you automatically gain access to that resource. So, as long as your iron isn't 1 tile from your capital, building Praetorians will not be a problem. You just need a Settler rather than a Worker.

 

[Zeviz]

I'd like to play in this game. I am usually a builder, so this will be a new experience for me.

For a leader, Kubai Khan looks good. Keshiks sound perfect for stealing workers deep in enemy territory, or stealing a worker and getting out on the same turn. I also like the trait mix: aggressive is a must and Creative lets newly captured cities expand borders quickly and lets us steal some improved lands without war, especially in early game. Expansive (from Genghiz) probably isn't as useful a trait, because health isn't a problem on Prince level, especially with all the forests we'll have to keep because we need production and can't waste worker turns to chop them down.

Alternatively, we could go for somebody with a mid-game UU, as suggested, and steal cities complete with lots of workers and improvements.

 

[Liquidated]

thing I like about samis and conqes are that they buck the trend of propone UU's. By that I mean conques have are knights with +50% to melee (and keep a defensive bonus!?!?) where pikes are melee with bonus to mounted. Sami are in same boat with not only the innate ombat 1 from agressive, but 2 first strikes and 50% bonus to melee to counter fellow macemen.

The problem with kubla is that his star unit is mounted and never gets the aggressive bonus... that mismatch really hurts when compared to the competition.

No one right answer for sure. Want to know the overall map etc.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Sirian]

The problem with kubla is that his star unit is mounted and never gets the aggressive bonus... that mismatch really hurts when compared to the competition.

He got a First Strike instead. Keshiks are well balanced! They are as capable as any unit in the game of putting high-level AIs out of their misery in the early going. Praetorians are stronger but slower.


- Sirian

 

[Liquidated]

I love rome those prae's are mean!

Alas, I stand corrected by the owner of that fantabulous master of orion page!

Dos box makes even the darloks smile.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[Drasca]

He got a First Strike instead. Keshiks are well balanced! They are as capable as any unit in the game of putting high-level AIs out of their misery in the early going. Praetorians are stronger but slower.

Don't forget Ignore Terrain Movement. The AI isn't any good with this, but Keshiks can even cross rivers without movement penalty. This singular inherent feature makes them the most versatile mobile attack force. Rome really needs galleys or a large road network to be effective. Great assault and turtle, but when you look at kublai and his keshiks... Kublai will claim terrain faster, hold it with fast cultural defenses, and force Rome to turtle up while Keshiks pillage and manuever to join your allies. Rome might have his SoD, but he'll never be a great threat to your improvements, he's so slow by the time Praets get to you, you know have a lot of time to prepare.

Sullla, Speaker, ToddMarshall, Atlas, Chriseay and I had a 3v3 Mp game last night where that was just the case. Sullla pressed his Praetorian advantage to the fullest he could, but it simply was not be enough when a city can receive reinforcements within two-three turns due to a road network. That city was also with a creative civ, so it claimed territory fast before Rome could firmly establish a road network to the city so that Praets could attack.

If he had keshiks to back him up (or any other player's military reinforcements for that matter), he might've been able to move onto and pillage roads. Some of the roads were through forests and hills, which would slow down normal chariots/horse archers enough that they would be unable to pillage. Keshiks have no such problem.

Rome's great from a turtle / assault perspective. That is easy to conceptualize. But Mongols are... expansive and extremely mobile. They force players and civ AI's to turtle up while you mount an advantage. Mongols will cover distances Rome can't begin to conceptualize.

I rather like the Expansive trait. It isn't the best around, but the +2 health isn't what's great about it. Double speed granaries. That just begs for high food resource whipping. Admittedly not so good until we bag a worker or two. Once we choose a civ, I'll decide on a map script that presses our civ's advantage (Great plains for khans / Persia , Low sea level water map for Isabella / Toku, etc)

The starting techs for these civs were chosen wisely with their traits in mind. For Isabella, that should mean fish resources via her innate fishing. For Temujin and Kublai, since they get free wheel and hunting leads to animal husbandry, that begs cows, early horses, chariots, and then archery and Keshiks.

 

[Zeviz]

I forgot about cheap granaries for Expansive. However, Creative leaders don't need Obelisks and get more possible tiles to work after a border expansion in just 5 turns, so that lets them put up Granaries faster too. Either option could be useful.

Water map might slow down our initial development more, because we'd need Galleys for all exploring warriors, so we'd have to wait longer for first worker. However, there is less land to improve and AI isn't as good at dealing with water, so it might not be much harder in the long run.

Water map sounds fun, so I am not sure whether I prefer Tokugava or Kubai Khan.

 

[Liquidated]

well gonna prolly try kubli in liq-01 for exactly the mobility you mentioned.

So if the map is determined from the leader chosen, that changes a lot. Any of the mentioned leaders is viable. I've been reacting to maps instead of talioring maps to leaders. By this I mean grab a preset map then fill the gaps by choosing a leader that adapts.

Liq's civ mental box is so small

Toku is facinating, I'm Just not all that hot on organized in lower difficulty games. I'm always around to have my eyes opened though!

Just curious, Do izzy's conques really get defensive bonuses or is that just an oversight in the civlopedia?

Anyway, So many viable choices, I'm open to whichever.

Cheers!
-Liq

 

[S.ilver]

Oooh... and insane elitest conquering SG... too good to pass up. Liq knows how I like to bash heads, or rather, how I am sometimes forced to bash heads (bad Mansa!).

The no worker building policy sounds quite intriguing. In Civ 3, I used to use a similar strategy as a norm. Except I was able to raze enemy cities to the ground and enslave half their population to do my bidding. Now that's not an option . But I'm sure it'll still get along fine.

You can count me in, if you can tolerate a player who is new to prince level.

 

[Sullla]

Sullla, Speaker, ToddMarshall, Atlas, Chriseay and I had a 3v3 Mp game last night where that was just the case. Sullla pressed his Praetorian advantage to the fullest he could, but it simply was not be enough when a city can receive reinforcements within two-three turns due to a road network. That city was also with a creative civ, so it claimed territory fast before Rome could firmly establish a road network to the city so that Praets could attack.

If he had keshiks to back him up (or any other player's military reinforcements for that matter), he might've been able to move onto and pillage roads. Some of the roads were through forests and hills, which would slow down normal chariots/horse archers enough that they would be unable to pillage. Keshiks have no such problem.

I didn't manage to take you or Chriseay out, but I did force you guys to build so many units on defense that we were ahead by 1000 points in 1000AD.

 

[chriseay]

I didn't manage to take you or Chriseay out, but I did force you guys to build so many units on defense that we were ahead by 1000 points in 1000AD.

True true, we'll (well at least I'll) concede the win to you. I wonder if either side could have won by military? I do have to say, that was probably my poorest play in a civ 4 game since, well, ever. I kept getting distracted and just doing stupid things.....and then it got late and I got tired. Good game anyway.

 

[Drasca]

Hehe. I loved your Praets by sea and cultural roads. That's showing everyone how to use Roman movement 1 praets.

I did force you guys to build so many units on defense

We actually had offense in mind. Elephants by sea! You managed a navy blockade in the north. Our plan was elephants through the south, past speaker, directly into MM. Speaking with MM, that could've worked as he had very few units defending at the time. Grand total of 5, I believe, and was told not to build military.

Very fun game, but a learning experience. Lots of goofs that game on all ends (like, not realizing Atlas was FDR with industrious, and taking advantage of it with wonderland), or my mismanaged navy blockades (I hate ocean and coast being practically the same blue), or you thinking I had no Navy. Underestimating my navy. Pheaaar the workboat! and four other galleys waiting for your galleys when I took the chariot bait. I realized it was bait as soon as I took it, but since I had galleys in the area...

Chris might concede, but we just got guilds, which means conquistadors, and that means a wonderful UU advantage in our favor. Praetorians just roll over when conquisators come in.

 

[chriseay]

Chris might concede, but we just got guilds, which means conquistadors, and that means a wonderful UU advantage in our favor. Praetorians just roll over when conquisators come in.

One reason and one reason only that I concede, I just can't imagine playing that game any longer. I played too horribly to even think I had a chance to be on the winning team!

 

[Drasca]

If you thought you were bad, you should've seen the other guy! Speaker was complaining about how poorly he did. I did a lot of goofs too. I'm the one who first said "*(&# religion". I also didn't make coordination efforts clear, which made things difficult for us, but I do believe we had a clear shot of winning because the other guys were doing just as badly, and we had larger coordinated military effort. Sullla and Speaker outright told MM to not build military. That's not a good idea especially considering how high production MM was.

I don't want to continue that game, but I believe in you and atlas as my teammates, and I believe in your ability to play and recover from mistakes (I sure made plenty). Also, Lakes isn't exactly my favorite map script either, although it is mostly fair and interesting for MP.

I'm having tons and tons of fun playing with Marshall right now. We just had a game last night where we defended against over 100 persian units over 4 turns of combat.

 

[Liquidated]

I so fear multiplayer as it will show how weak I STILL am on the offensive. I learn, but not that fast!

So love civ4 as there's just so much depth there if you want to find it yet stays simple if you don;t want to be bothered.

Caters to all levels of play really.

SG's though, just take CIV4 and blow the roof off the addictivness factor. My sleep pattern is fearful of the little black box.

If you need a 5th player for rb-10 let me know, I can most likely convince another 'noob' that's behaved with honor in a prior SG, but is new to the RB.

I have no issue going with toku btw, never tried him so far.


Cheers!
-Liq