The Republicans go to War

[Lanzelot]

T201, 860AD:
Bremen completes the Pentagon. Five Cav Armies are enlarged to size 4 now, even the ones on the home continent. I can't forego the power of the Artemis Temple for quite some time, so can't get to Galleons any time soon. And with Caravels I can't ship even size-3 Armies, so I might as well upgrade them to size 4. The game will probably be over by the time I can afford to go past Education?!

While killing a Persian Knight that had counter-attacked in the interturn, we spawn a new MGL: Barbarossa II! But currently not enough Cavs close by to fill this Army.

Richthofen and Hengest defeat 4 more muskets in Persepolis, but the town still holds!
Horsa and Rommel defeat 3 Hoplites and take Corinth.

Ship two more Cavs over to the western continent and advance on Chalco, eliminating a crusader and the first pike.

T202, 870AD:
Barbarossa II is filled with 3 Cavs and then defeats the last remaining musket in Persepolis!
The Pyramids, Sun Tzu's and the Great Wall are ours!

In the north, we capture Herakleia and the Greek furs. Lux rate can be reduced from 60 to 40% now.

At Magadan, we spawn Richthofen II! Need to ship more units over, and then the offensive on the western continent can start in earnest as well...
The 1st Army captures Chalco.

The Lux rate needs to be increased to 50% again.


T203, 880AD:
Horsa and Rommel capture Delphi. Some Cavs and eHorsemen capture Pharsalos and spawn Hengest II! I'll probably don't fill this Army and ship it over to the other continent, as both Greece and Persia are pretty much finished now.
A few more Cavs capture Eritrea.


T204, 890AD:
Richthofen II takes the Babylonian town of Izibia. Top priority is now to connect the gems over there.
Zariqum is captured by the first Army.

During clean-up operations at Zariqum, Horsa II is spawned. We are definitely running out of units to fill all our Armies...

In Greece, Horsa captures Troy and Rommel Rhodes. The Greeks are down to their last town.

At the Persian front, we capture Sidon and Borasian:

T205, 900AD:
Pergamon is captured, Greece must have a settler on a boat.

In the west, Richthofen II captures Ixtapaluca and connects the gems! That was faster than expected. I can lower the lux rate to 30% now. It's about time, because the last two interturns I already did not have enough cash to upgrade all the horses and made already plans to build cavalry proper in some of the cities.
Horsa II and the first Army mop up some units and capture Teayo.

In Persia, Hengest takes Pasargardae and Richthofen Jinjan.

I need to rush a few galleys to find the best possible crossing for shipping my soon unemployed eastern army over to the other continent!

 

[Lanzelot]

T206, 910AD:
A turn mostly spent healing...


T207, 920AD:
Sink one of the two Greek galleys, and Greece is no more! But I can't lower the lux slider: the Babylonians killed 3 of my Cavs interturn and it looks like the WW from the Babylonian war is now replacing the one from the Greek war... Oh well...

Capture Murmansk in the north and clean up a bunch of Russian and Babylonian units that killed my cavs during the interturn.

Horsa and Rommel capture Ergili on the Persian east coast. Dariush Kabis is also taken.
An advance party establishes that it is possible to sail from the south-west tip of our continent to the western continent:

So that's where I'll begin concentrating the home forces.


T208, 930AD:
In the south, Gordium and Arbela are captured, a Russian and an Aztecan town are autorazed.

On the other continent, Kazan' is captured and the north is now completely under our control, so I can now turn my full attention (3 Armies) south...

T209, 940AD:
On the western continent we capture Tula and Nippur.

I started rushing settlers now, so that we get as many Artemis culture-expansions as possible, before we capture the GLib in Tenochtitlan. Once our offensive in the west starts rolling, it can only be a matter of a few turns, before we get to that city. I will have to decide then, whether I want these techs or not.

In Persia we captured Antioch and raze Hamadan.
The Aztecan town of Tepexpan and the Russian town Novosibirsk are also captured on our continent, and Rommel III is spawned... My 10th Army!


T210, 950AD:
The Persians ring me up interturn and would give all their remaining 3 towns for peace... But I guess, that's against the rules of AW, even if I declare again right afterwards?

Capture Zohak.

On the western continent capture Eridu.

This is how the world looks like in 950AD:

Persia is down to it's last three towns in the south-eastern corner of our continent. The Russians also have a town in the south-western corner, otherwise the continent is under my control. A few more gaps to fill, and then I can do without Artemis. (I'm currently at 46% territory.)

In SGFN-08, the world looked quite different in 950AD:



Skandinavia and Greece still alive, Persia still in full power, no foothold yet on the western continent. The game was indeed much more difficult with Monarchy.

 

[Quintillus]

Well played! Your expansion is lightning-fast now. I don't think it matters a whole lot whether you get Education or not - it will only make a few turns' difference at the rate you are expanding. I am curious how quickly you could research with 30% luxury rate but also with the great empire you've established. Quick, I'm sure, but 4-turn? Regardless, probably not quick enough to get railroads before getting victory!

 

[Elephantium]

Skandinavia and Greece still alive, Persia still in full power, no foothold yet on the western continent. The game was indeed much more difficult with Monarchy.

Well, that's not a fair comparison. The Succession-Game was a training game to some extent, and that comes with some mistakes along the way. Your version of this game is optimized a lot better than that one. A better comparison would be to take an early save from the SG (along with its town placement, etc) and revolt into Republic instead of Monarchy.

 

[Quintillus]

Elephantium does have an interesting point. Lanzelot's skill level is likely higher than the average in the succession game, and even though the sands of time may have reduced memory of the succession game somewhat, having played on the same map before also helps. In addition to the early-save-split-off-idea, simply playing from scratch as done here, but with Monarchy, also seems like it would be more of an apples-to-apples comparison. Although the various comparisons do seem to suggest Republic is doing better, it isn't the only difference, so if the intent is to prove that Republic is really better, it would be interesting to see a "The Monarchists go to War" thread afterwards to see if, even with Lanzelot's improved knowledge of the map after this game, Monarchy would still prove to be inferior.

 

[Lanzelot]

I don't think it matters a whole lot whether you get Education or not - it will only make a few turns' difference at the rate you are expanding. I am curious how quickly you could research with 30% luxury rate but also with the great empire you've established. Quick, I'm sure, but 4-turn? Regardless, probably not quick enough to get railroads before getting victory!

There is indeed not much I can gain from researching on: Galleons would make no difference (I would need Transports to ship the Armies over to the other continent), and even railways would not save that much time: Cavs can travel 9 tiles per turn, and I have a ship-chain established directly from my core to the front-line on the western continent. The money is probably better spent for upgrading horsemen to cavalry (as I have done ever since Military Tradition was completed: pillage my saltpeter, build horses, connect saltpeter and upgrade interturn) or for cash-rushing new empty Armies and shipping them over. In any case, the advance on the other continent even with ordinary Cavs is so quick now, that firing up research again would only slow down victory... But the question still remains, what to do when I capture the Great Library? I haven't found it yet, but I'm just about to invade the Aztecan core and will probably find it within the next 5 turns or so. The Persians had been really strong for a long time, and the Aztecans and Russians also did not have any serious war weariness for quite some time, so meanwhile all three must be pretty advanced, perhaps even close to the Industrial Age.
But I think, I'll just raze the GLib anyway: even if I get the entire Middle Age for free and then get lucky and get Steam as my freebee, I can't make much use of it: contrary to a "normal" game, I have almost no workers in this game... I know, I have to be ashamed of that fact, but I joined all of them to my core cities, as soon as the required tiles were fully improved... At the moment I only have a few slave teams building roads towards the front line and towards the south-western tip of the home continent, so that the troops can quickly be shipped to Russia, once Persia is finished. So even if I get Steam for free right now, it would take a long time, before the rails would make any kind of difference. And all the while I would have to run around 10% higher lux rate and would have to rush a lot more settlers to cover the territory on the home continent. So I think Artemis is still worth more than Steam.

Well, that's not a fair comparison. The Succession-Game was a training game to some extent, and that comes with some mistakes along the way. Your version of this game is optimized a lot better than that one. A better comparison would be to take an early save from the SG (along with its town placement, etc) and revolt into Republic instead of Monarchy.

In addition to the early-save-split-off-idea, simply playing from scratch as done here, but with Monarchy, also seems like it would be more of an apples-to-apples comparison.

You both have a valid point here. In the succession game a lot of early mistakes have been made, like putting important core cities in the wrong places and then settler-disbanding and relocating them, bad worker management and waiting for the GLib to give us Monarchy and ending up staying in Despotism for way too long. All this slowed down the setup of a strong productive core and made the game harder. In order to have a meaningful comparison, one would have to replay the game from scratch beelining for Monarchy instead of Republic, and then see how that turns out.

But I think the current experiment shows, that contrary to the common consent in the original game, an AW Monarch game is not only playable with Republic, but even a bit easier than with Monarchy: I'm still convinced, that two advantages make this game easier than if I had played it with Monarchy:

• The slingshot cannot be used for Monarchy. Therefore we have a faster switch to a non-despotic government and consequently a faster completion of a productive core.
• Research is faster, and the sooner we get Cavalry, the sooner the game is won.

I even think that the same strategy I implemented in this game would still work on Emperor level. I only have to be careful not to repeat the same mistake I made in the current game: after eliminating the Dutch (which was still correct), I should have setup a defensive position down at the choke-point and wait there passively until the infrastructure setup was complete and Military Tradition was researched. But I dashed on with my horsemen into Greek and Persian territory and - after some initial successes - had to retreat with heavy losses and too high war wearines (which slowed down Military Tradition). I should have known that both of them would be very dangerous in an early Golden Age and that against Hoplites and Immortals my Horsemen are too weak.

But I have to admit, that on Demigod or higher it is doubtful, whether Republic would be the right choice. On this map probably not. With better starting land and less early contacts perhaps?!

In any case: if someone wants to try the game under Monarchy, I can attach the 4000BC save. I won't have the time for that any time soon...

 

[Lanzelot]

PS: another important point I completely forgot: when going for Steam Power, I would also lose the Hanging Gardens! So that would be another substantial reduction of my cash flow...

 

[Elephantium]

At the very least, you've proven the original point: That a Republican AW game is feasible (and indeed, can go really well)!

 

[Quintillus]

I think that's a good analysis - you have indeed proved Always War Monarch with Republic to be workable, and the two reasons you cited are key. I also agree with your analysis of the key mistake - though momentum did make it look like you could advance, in retrospect and against those opponents it was too much, too quick. Beyond the initial Dutch rush, the one time that the outcome was in doubt was when the Persians had annihilated your vanguard and were making a real approach into Dutch lands. Defensively, they may have fought the Greeks more, and you could have picked favorable battles against them (sticking to offense as much as possible, and perhaps using some entrenched spears for when defensive battles were necessary, until Cavalry were ready).

But hindsight's also 20:20. You didn't meet Persia until you were already overextended, and the initial test of Greek defenses had shown them to be weak. It hadn't seemed like a defensive strategy was necessary, until 10 Persian Immortals appeared out of nowhere, shortly to be followed by even more.

I could try 4000 BC, but also lack sufficient time, and will surely not play as well (I've beaten Emperor, but that's it... and Emperor is no sure thing). I also just started a game a few weeks ago...

 

[Lanzelot]

Here is the start save, for anyone interested.

 

[Lanzelot]

T211, 960AD:
Interturn I lose 3 or 4 Cavs.

Capture Tyre in Persia.


T212, 970AD:
Capture Xochicalco & Eulbar in the West, autoraze Samaria and Samara on the home continent.

Xochicalco has ivory, so I can lower the lux rate now to 20%!
Rush a lot of settlers.


T213, 980AD:
Interturn an Aztec AC appears and recaptures Xochicalco...%&§
Amsterdam riots, but I can prevent most of the others from rioting, except for a few that don't have enough food.

Capture the last Persian town Ghulaman and their treasury: 303 gold.
I can lower the lux rate now to 10%, and after recapturing Xochicalco even to 0%. Finally! I'm making now over 500gpt.
Rush another bunch of settlers.


T214, 990AD:
Capture Tzintzunzen and Tlaxcala.

The first 4 boats are manned to land on the island on the way to Russia:

Rush the second Army in Berlin.


T215, 1000AD:
Capture Atzcapotzalco. The Second Army is shipped over, assembled in Tlaxcala and helps cleaning up a bunch of Russian MIs.

World map:

 

[Quintillus]

Nice! What's the % land at? Looks like you're approaching all the land on the home continent, shouldn't take very many more settlers.

 

[Lanzelot]

T216, 1010AD:
Capture Niniveh and two dyes resources. Now the 8 lux resources are complete!

While capturing Teotihuacan, Barbarossa III spawns!

Tlalmanalco and Cempoala on the small island in the southwest are taken. 60% territory (and 68% population) are now reached.


T217, 1020AD:
Something I have never seen in a regular game before: I get 4 Palace extensions?!?

Tlatelolco, and Ashur are captured, Ashur from the Russians, so there must have been a Russian-Babylonian war going on.
Tenochtitlan is discovered, but bypassed for now.

My southern invasion army finally lands at Smolensk:

Now I can pincer Aztecia and Russia from both sides with a total of 4 Armies, 2 Armies will move into Babylon:

T218, 1030AD:
In southern Russia Smolensk and Krasnoyarsk are taken.

While fighting on the small island, Richthofen III is spawned and Huexotla is captured.

A few more towns founded, and I have reached domination limit. So I decide to attack Tenochtitlan after all. Will be interesting to see, how far the AI have advanced by now.
With 8 luxuries, I think I can do without Artemis... But there are too many Pikes in there.

I take Samarra in Babylon for good measure and then hit enter:

Domination in 1040AD.

 

[Lanzelot]

A quick comparison to the original game: it ended with domination in 1445AD.
Unfortunately the link to the 1050AD save in the old thread is defunct, but in the description it says that all nations except the Dutch were still alive.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...m-succession-game.359115/page-42#post-9482464

 

[Quintillus]

Well done! And very quick progression from 60% to 66% territory!

You've also reminded me what's so great about Civ3 S&T over the past month, and I've dove into a game. Definitely will not be over by 1050 AD, but it is somewhat inspired by this one.

 

[Lanzelot]

And very quick progression from 60% to 66% territory!

Something that is easily forgotten: even though the "Cavalry unit" is a real game breaker, even stronger is the "Settler unit"... In the final phase of my games, most of the new territory usually comes from settlers. As you can see in the notes, I have captured between 1-3 towns per turn. But I've founded about 5 new towns each turn! Mostly in former Greece and Persia, where there is lots of food and lots of land.