The second GS dilemma

[TheDS]

Oxford + Academy + Library + Observatory + University = +225%.

Great Scientist = 6 or 9 Beakers.

non-Rep: 6*3.25=19.5 beakers. (Doubled is 39.)
pro-Rep: 9*3.25=29.25 beakers. (Doubled is 58.5.)

If you have a city with base-Beakers => the doubled value above, then it's better to build an Academy there. Otherwise, it's better to settle him in the Oxford city. This is true in any game, no matter what. However, there are a few other considerations.

Cities can have a varying amount of Beakers, because they can have varying Commerce and the sliders can move. So set your slider to the minimum value you expect to spend the overwhelming majority of the time in, then check the beaker outputs. If the city has growth room, and you're not a whipping-maniac, then keep in mind that the cities will get better Commerce in the future.

And that doesn't preclude other circumstances making other uses more necessary. I don't like bulbing anyone for a partial tech, or for techs that I can research in a couple turns myself, but you may see use in it. In general, if you've still got at least 50 turns to go, it's better to settle/acadamize than bulb.

I have used GS to kick off GA for a final push to end the game.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I have used GS to kick off GA for a final push to end the game.

At that point, settling a GS or even using it for an academy or corporation is pretty much a moot point.

Seems like a solid use of a GS in that situation.

 

[JTMacc99]

If the second GS shows up anywhere near the same time Philosophy, I would use him or save him for that. It is an excellent tech to bulb for any number of reasons.

Priests and engineers are hard to get early, especially the latter.

I'm playing a game now as DeGaulle. I built the Pyramids and the Hagia Sophia (along with a few others) in Paris and ran just an engineer specialist. That crazy city churned out five engineers by 1300AD. I had one engineer on ice for centuries just to build Versailles in what would eventually be the former Mali capital. I hated to save an engineer for so long, but the plan was to completely overrun the second half of my continent in about 20 turns, and the maintenance was going to kill me after I was done. That GE probably saved me 30-40gpt for the 30 turns it shaved off of building that wonder, not to mention the huge amount in the long run if I had lost the wonder to another civ.

 

[Ultimocrat]

Enough settled GS in your oxford city and you can research half of each tech with that one city. I had 13 settled GS in my Rome Earth 18 game. 13 x 9 (rep) = 117 +225% = 380 per turn just from settled GS. Add in my 10 scientists specialists, trade commerce and any other tile commerce and you have an incredible science city.

10 specialists: 60 + 225% = 195
Say 10 beakers from commerce = 32

380 + 195 + 32 = 607 per turn from 1 city.

Settled GS are so much better IMO. But it's all about play style.

Really, on an Earth 18 civ game as rome you didn't capture any more than 1 city with 60 base science? (60*0.5 = 30 > 9*3.25)

 

[TabascoBob]

Get philosophy, which will speed up all later great scientists.

Only by running pacifism, right? [Or is there some secret benefit that low level grinders like me don't know about...]

I've been settling the first one or building an academy, whichever gives me the better "pop" when she comes along. It depends on whether or not I'm teching Alphabet, or letting the GS do it while I run the slider way low (because of an early rush or REX).

The second GS is almost always an Academy builder, usually in the city where the first one settled (which is also the city I hope the GL and/or WS and/or Oxford is/are going to go). I almost never use a GS for a GA, by the time I'm ready for a GA I've got a different GPerson on ice.

I guess for me, the "bulb path" would be a good thread to review. Is there such a thread? [I'll go look now, but since I'm posting, figured I would ask...] I've seen various posts suggesting you can basically bulb your way to a liberalism race win, but I have not opened up the tech tree to plot out how that works exactly. I'm guessing it would depend on having a pure GS farm to minimize the mutations that leave with the GA that can bulb... drama?

If there is a specific bulb strategy, I would reconsider the "2nd GS is almost always an Academy-builder" rule of mine.

 

[vicawoo]

I'm surprised more people don't advocate philosophy first. I always built an academy first until someone pointed out that academy-bulb takes 2-3x turns while philosophy-academy takes 1.5-2x turns. Although usually you'll have that first scientist way before you have code of laws.

 

[TabascoBob]

That's what I thought too, vicawoo- the first one usually comes before CoL for me too.

Does a Liberalism sprinter consider the Oracle slingshot to CoL, GS-bulb Philosophy?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Really, on an Earth 18 civ game as rome you didn't capture any more than 1 city with 60 base science? (60*0.5 = 30 > 9*3.25)

That would require a city with 13 towns in it's BFC with a 70% science slider. No... haven't seen that often enough not to just settle the GS in my scientist farm.

And that's with leeway built in for trade commerce

 

[Ultimocrat]

That would require a city with 13 towns in it's BFC with a 70% science slider. No... haven't seen that often enough not to just settle the GS in my scientist farm.

And that's with leeway built in for trade commerce

What's the calculation you're making? 13*7 = 91; 91*0.7 = 63 -- there's no leeway there for trade commerce. Also, you're neglecting rivers and scientists. I'll usually have a couple cities by the end of most games where an academy would be better than settling at Oxford.

But my point was more about how ridiculously resource-rich Europe is on the earth 18 civ map. There are a number of capitals in europe that have the surplus food to run 10 scientists. And tons of rivers.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

No. River towns have 7 commerce with a financial leader. BTW I don't use free speech and keep it set on Nationalism. If you're talking WITH free speech, then we just have 2 different approaches to playing.

13*6 (no free speech, no FIN (Rome), on a river)*0.7= 54.7 give it 6 commerce from trading. And you usually won't find 13 tiles on a riverside

You're right about the multiple cities with up to 10 scientists, but you can only have 1 city with Oxford. By computers, you have each settled GS netting an extra 9 +250% = 31.5

You're point is taken though.

 

[pigswill]

The settled GS argument seems to be based on super-science city with academy,oxford etc. This is a relatively late game advantage (you need to have researched education, built six universities and Oxford itself). Once you've done that then a settled GS may well be superior to an academy elsewhere (though by the time you've done that you could also have a couple of pop 16 cities with 12 towns and a few resources).

Earlier in the game you'll probably just have a library and an academy (75% bonus) so with rep a settled GS will give you 15.25 beakers/turn. Using a GS to bulb an expensive tech (philosophy and education are the standard ones on the liberalism path) will save you at least a 1000 beakers which means you get to education/liberalism several turns earlier which means that you get universities and Oxford earlier than you would have done if you'd settled the GS in the first place.

The OP was what to do with the second GS. It may be that its better to settle the tenth GS in a science city but that's irrelevant to the early game. Generally speaking I'd reckon you're better off using the first and second GS for an academy and a philosophy lightbulb, the order that happens depends on how quickly you get to CoL compared to how quickly you get your second GS.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I think you're ignoring 2 very important things:

1) Education and Astronomy in no way are late game techs. They are at the early middle of the middle of the tech tree. Think about it. You haven't even started building galleons at this point.

more importantly

2) Building Oxford U. doesn't give the 100% bonus ONLY to scientists settled AFTER you build it, but all scientists and other related sources. So settling a GS (second) in your future Oxford may not give you immediate returns, but when you stack them in your Oxford city, you're getting a big boost when it comes along. Also, 15.25 beakers/turn in the early game is a fairly healthy boost that I'll take any day.

A lot of people like to bulb there way to Philosophy/Liberalism. This is only necessary on higher levels of difficulty as you can achieve this without bulbing easily on early/middle levels of play. Higher levels, of course, being Emperor+. Monarch it may be more difficult on highly populated maps, but on Large/default # of civs and smaller, you shouldn't have too too much troubl.e