The Spartans, part 1 (01 Nov 2007)

[Colonel Tigh]

Ah, I see how you got there. Yeah, by the time we get to the Classical age the panoply which we associate with the hoplite was already "going out of style." Partly because it was cheaper to go with just the bronze helmet and shield, therefore you could field more men, and partly because, according to some historians anyway, that wall of shields made the cuirass superfluous.
When you get time, Mithadan, I'd like to know where the Osprey book gets its info on them not covering up their genitalia--I know they never put armour there, but I always assumed some sort of clothing covering them up.

EDIT: To Virote,
Yeah, there was one young man, Isidas, who was wrestling when the Thebans under Epaminondas attacked and grabbed his weapons in went to battle nude. He was duly rewarded for his bravery and then fined and punished for being reckless...gotta love the Spartans!

EDIT 2: Something else came to mind:
One of the earliset representations of hoplites on Greek pottery is from the Chigi vase (dated to about 650BC) shows them having cloth covering their genitalia

 

[Mithadan]

When you get time, Mithadan, I'd like to know where the Osprey book gets its info on them not covering up their genitalia--I know they never put armour there, but I always assumed some sort of clothing covering them up.

No, I'm pretty sure my Osprey doesn't say anything about exposed genitalia. I must have been going largely on rumor, and even then it seems to have concerned very early hoplite or proto-hoplite folks (thence that DBA pic). I seem to recall on these very boards a year or two back when both the graphic novel 300 and Stephen Pressfield's The Gates of Fire were being kicked around as movies, there were snide remarks about how the movies would probably not be accurate in depicting the full frontal male nudity of the time. That's probably as good a source as I've got! Sorry...

 

[Mithadan]

Wow, aren't I full of mistakes! The Osprey book actually does say something about not covering up genetalia:

"Representations show, and texts describe, men doing dirty work like ploughing, sowing or potting naked. Athletic nudity may have been ritual in origin. At the start of the Archaic period light clothes were worn during athletic exercise, but they were eventually discarded completely. The rigours of warfare -- marching and fighting in heavy armour often under the summer sun -- were hardly less demanding than those of sport and physical training. Nor was warfare of less ritual significance than sport. When we see representations of Spartans fighting without a tunic, we should not dismiss them as being 'artistic' or 'heroising': undoubtedly some are, but nudity in Greek art is, more often than not, a depiction of reality."
--Nick Sekunda, The Spartan Army (Oxford: Osprey, 1998), p. 20.

Two of the colour plates by Richard Hook show Spartan hoplites wearing a "bell cuirass" but nothing below the belt (as it were), completely exposing the buttocks & genitals (Plates C & D). More tellingly, however, are pages 5 & 18, which show a statue & painted cup, respectively, of variously exposed Spartan hoplites.

 

[Sandris]

In a day or two I`ll post updated versions of my spartan units (correctly turned "lambda" and red, non-civ color tunics).

Also, I propose in this thread or in a separate one to begin posting of all the possible images and suggestions, advices, descriptions on Spartan units in order to complete the Spartan civilization`s unit line (slingers, peltasts, javeliners, bowmen, horsemen, spearmen, clubmen, swordsmen etc).

The information must be referred ONLY TO SPARTANS, not to other hellenic greek civs (they`ll be completed later).

 

[Mithadan]

Oooh, yay! Well, for starters I'll get to scanning my Osprey colour plates, because there's a good many pictures of Spartan units there for your inspiration and information, although some of them (peltasts, cavalry) were more often than not mercenary or allied soldiers, rather than Spartans proper.

 

[COAtlantis1745]

In a day or two I`ll post updated versions of my spartan units (correctly turned "lambda" and red, non-civ color tunics).

Also, I propose in this thread or in a separate one to begin posting of all the possible images and suggestions, advices, descriptions on Spartan units in order to complete the Spartan civilization`s unit line (slingers, peltasts, javeliners, bowmen, horsemen, spearmen, clubmen, swordsmen etc).

The information must be referred ONLY TO SPARTANS, not to other hellenic greek civs (they`ll be completed later).

This is MOST awesome news, mate!

I will dig up some suggestions.

 

[Sandris]

The discussion thread on SPARTANS is HERE.

 

[Sandris]

Non-civ colored versions of the Early Spartan Spearman and Swordsman are added.

The cloth color is dark red and the "lambda" on shields is corrected.

Check post № 1.

 

[Civinator]

Very nice. Thank you very much.

 

[Ozymandias]

Are you, Wyrmshadow and aaglo sharing some secret potion to pump out units?

-Oz

 

[Partizanac]

Are you, Wyrmshadow and aaglo sharing some secret potion to pump out units?

-Oz

they gotta have the time machine!

 

[Mithadan]

Non-civ colored versions of the Early Spartan Spearman and Swordsman are added.

The cloth color is dark red and the "lambda" on shields is corrected.

Check post № 1.

Awesome, Sandris, this is great stuff! I and many others here, obviously, are very greatful indeed.

 

[agonistes]

Hey, these are awesome!!

Dang, I'm never going to finish this game if I have to keep starting over with the new units.

But these are perfect for the mod!