The Sword of Islam: RFC Medieval Middle East

[Jusos2108]

These events are getting really annoying. It seems that everyone is bad. Either famine, or earthquakes or destroyed pastures or soil degredation.

The only good event I have gotten as Gujarat is a quest to build Lancers, but i can't for some reason. There really need to be positive events. I have not seen enough of them

Do you have the latest patch? I didn't get nearly as much of them as in the first. I even got an early positive event!

 

[AOS9001]

The only positive events I get are the walls with the miracle.

@Turk: I have played to the Mongol invasions, and the Mongols target KoJ just like everyone else. And they often win when the odds are against them, that's irritating. You'd think a heavy spearman with the hill defense I promotion would be able to win on a defense, but nope.

Becoming a saint is hard with KoJ, they just don't have enough cities. You'd have to invade Egypt or something to get more. And that's precisely why there should be some of the resources they need in Egypt. They did try and conquer it several times, after all. The resources victory is possible though. I invaded Yemen and got two incense there, and a turn before the time was up, Basil finally agreed to trade silk with me. What is that guy's problem, anyway? He only trades right when you spawn, or at really random turns throughout the game.

 

[Jusos2108]

The only positive events I get are the walls with the miracle.

@Turk: I have played to the Mongol invasions, and the Mongols target KoJ just like everyone else. And they often win when the odds are against them, that's irritating. You'd think a heavy spearman with the hill defense I promotion would be able to win on a defense, but nope.

Becoming a saint is hard with KoJ, they just don't have enough cities. You'd have to invade Egypt or something to get more. And that's precisely why there should be some of the resources they need in Egypt. They did try and conquer it several times, after all. The resources victory is possible though. I invaded Yemen and got two incense there, and a turn before the time was up, Basil finally agreed to trade silk with me. What is that guy's problem, anyway? He only trades right when you spawn, or at really random turns throughout the game.

I got the speeded research and monastery writings.

Note that the +50% against mounted doesn't apply to missile cavalry like Mongolian Horse Archers.

I took Cilicia and Jazira, which gave me enough cities. Build prosecuters too.

 

[embryodead]

@Turk: I have played to the Mongol invasions, and the Mongols target KoJ just like everyone else. And they often win when the odds are against them, that's irritating. You'd think a heavy spearman with the hill defense I promotion would be able to win on a defense, but nope.

Like Jusos said, note that Horse Archers are "Missile Cavalry" not Cavalry and Spearmen are useless against them. There is no typical anit-missile cavalry unit, though there is a anti-missile cavalry promotion "Skirmish". Probably the best defense against Mongols is light/heavy cavalry w/ Skirmish.

Becoming a saint is hard with KoJ, they just don't have enough cities. You'd have to invade Egypt or something to get more. And that's precisely why there should be some of the resources they need in Egypt. They did try and conquer it several times, after all. The resources victory is possible though. I invaded Yemen and got two incense there, and a turn before the time was up, Basil finally agreed to trade silk with me. What is that guy's problem, anyway? He only trades right when you spawn, or at really random turns throughout the game.

Piety works more like M2TW piety (which is more or less in the pedia), so getting new cities lowers your score, not raises it. It's a dynamic value that is based on the condition of your realm, not quantity of buildings. If you have the maximum number of State-Religions, Churches, Monasteries and Cathedrals (and no non-State Religions) that you can have in your cities, then your score will grow towards 80-90, whether you have 4 cities or 10. This allows both small and large states get high piety.

As for Silks - there are companies aka corporations - the AI will value resources differently depending on companies in his cities. If Byzantium has Genoans and Venetians in its realm, Basil won't be happy to give away Silk. You can see it in diplomacy, when you hover over a resource, there will be a corp icon next to it.

 

[embryodead]

So basically you want to give the Principality of Antioch the counties of Tripoli AND Edessa? I'm fine with that, but I just want to know your intentions, that all. Also you will make them spawn in 1098 right? Because technically, that's when the Principality of Antioch was first founded (1098-1268), OR are you just going to make them spawn with Kingdom of Jerusalem? Because I think it would look better if the Principality of Antioch spawns one turn BEFORE KoJ spawns.

We can't have all 4 crusader states with such a large map and scale - that's best left to a more dedicated Crusader mod/scenario (which I think are being made). I can't even fit Antioch, Aleppo and Edessa on the map - there would be only 1 space between them, and that's with a heavily distorted map (the Levant is at least 30% larger than it should be). So of the 4, KoJ and Antioch are most important/independent. Maybe Tripoli should flip to KoJ though, for balance and historical reasons. Currently Antioch is the same or better than KoJ. Edessa was rather minor and often a vassal/possession of rulers of either KoJ or Antioch, so it flips to Antioch.

Also what about the Crusader-Mongol Alliance? I have never played as KoJ until the Mongol Invasion, but the Mongol horde, should not be able to reach them, especially considering that they had made a pact.

I could make barbs less interested in KoJ/Antioch's cities, but it's some heavy SDK work, I'll see if possible at all.

Also Antioch was almost always under the protection of the Byzantine Empire, so if they are unplayable, or if they are not being played by humans, I would recommend that they are vassals to the Empire, especially considering that Antioch was saved several times by Alexius Komenius (however you spell his name, and by other Byzantine commanders), as it was constantly under siege by Nur ad-Din. OR if they are not their vassals, then they should start of with good relations with the Byzantine Empire, because although these relations were not always "the best", the Byzantine Empire came to their rescue several times.

I think "almost always" a vassal is a bit too much - for the first half of their existence they mostly fought with Byzantium, sacking Cilicia etc., then the second half they were vassals. They are set to be more happy about being a vassal of Christian civs than KoJ, which should very rarely / never surrender.

Unique - stuff

I was hoping to avoid making new units and there's a Norman Knight, but I think there were Knights of Antioch there as well, somewhere. Castor Troy made an Edessan Knight recently, though this I wanted to use only for an event (once you flip Edessa, you get a one-of-a-kind Knight unit etc.). KoJ already uses a dismounted UU.

I like the Norman Church idea, though I'd hope they don't spread Catholicism everywhere... will see. But a church with military bonus is great.

UP probably Norman Fervor. Franco-Mongol alliance related won't work well because it would hit in 1260, and the Principality ceased to exist a few years later.

2 conquest UHVs + Venetian one is good, it won't be easy - normally you'll only get 3 coastal cities: Antioch, Tripoli and Tarsus, which means all three would have to have Venetians. Might be difficult or impossible, unless you also kill KoJ to get rid of competition.

Hope my suggestions help!

Sure, and thanks

PS. I would consider removing ALL Catholics in the Holy Land, except in Jerusalem (Prior to 1099, and the crusaders)...

This is a problem for 2 reasons:
- the AI will try to convert to Islam or Orthodoxy; I may completely disable conversions, but it'd be no fun either, as some "what if" cases are good. Currently it's almost impossible for them to switch, but if they have no cities with Catholicism at all, they'll abandon it.
- same with the human player - one easy way to get out of the bad political situation is to switch to Islam... well maybe at least that should be disabled, after all.

 

[MessageMan]

The Ottomans spawn after the 1200's, correct?

I don't want to take over Anatolia just to have all the cities flip.

 

[embryodead]

They spawn in 1299 and only flip the north-western part, Asia and Bithynia.

 

[senturus]

I have just finished my first game with Armenia :



To be honest, it was quite easy : the first UHV is doable without any great efforts, so as the second one (I didn't have to fight with Byzantine empire).
I was thinking that the end of game would be very boring but actually it was finally very interesting : with Georgia and Zengind (converted to orthodox christian) as vassals, and after having conquered Cicilia and Azerbaidan, i had almost collapsed : in two turns 4 cities declared independance/joined Georgian vassal, leaving only my capital and one city for me. And my army was fighting the byzantines far away from my core cities... I had to reconquier part of my former kingdom, and try to gain.
But even with this, i was able to do the third UHV, which is perhaps too easy too.
In any cases, this kind of 'bad surprise" is finally a great thing : it allows us to live the golden age as well as the "dark ages" of a civilization, and even win at the end.

One bug I had : when I've lost all my cities, my vassals did not recover their liberty, althought they had around 200% of my territory and population. It would have been a bit challenging actually, if my georgian and arabian vassals had became independant and threatened me...

In any cases, I repeat once more time this is really an amazing mod. Congratulations, i''m more interested in your mod than in Civ V. And thanks to it want to learn more about middle-east medieval history.

 

[corovanrobber]

You think why Ottomans start with their capital in Eskisehir?

 

[embryodead]

To be honest, it was quite easy : the first UHV is doable without any great efforts, so as the second one (I didn't have to fight with Byzantine empire).
I was thinking that the end of game would be very boring but actually it was finally very interesting : with Georgia and Zengind (converted to orthodox christian) as vassals, and after having conquered Cicilia and Azerbaidan, i had almost collapsed : in two turns 4 cities declared independance/joined Georgian vassal, leaving only my capital and one city for me. And my army was fighting the byzantines far away from my core cities... I had to reconquier part of my former kingdom, and try to gain.
But even with this, i was able to do the third UHV, which is perhaps too easy too.
In any cases, this kind of 'bad surprise" is finally a great thing : it allows us to live the golden age as well as the "dark ages" of a civilization, and even win at the end.

One correction - from what I can tell, you actually did collapse (at least, there should be a "Your kingdom is descending into civil war!" message), except there's no "escape" in this mod like in RFC. Instead, civil war happens, and you are left only with (EDIT) the capital and a some loyal cities.

One bug I had : when I've lost all my cities, my vassals did not recover their liberty, althought they had around 200% of my territory and population. It would have been a bit challenging actually, if my georgian and arabian vassals had became independant and threatened me...

Didn't think of it - I'll make sure all vassals are released automatically after the collapse.

In any cases, I repeat once more time this is really an amazing mod. Congratulations, i''m more interested in your mod than in Civ V. And thanks to it want to learn more about middle-east medieval history.

Thank you

 

[embryodead]

You think why Ottomans start with their capital in Eskisehir?

What version is this? I fixed it in 0.2.0, or so I thought.

EDIT: Nevermind

 

[corovanrobber]

The latest, 0.2.0. I am very certain about it.

 

[corovanrobber]

Maybe make it so that AI would conquer Cyprus and Rhodes sometimes.

 

[The Turk]

wow wow wow, when did we get to v0.2?? I thought we were still at v0.1.2? Where is the changelog?

I could make barbs less interested in KoJ/Antioch's cities, but it's some heavy SDK work, I'll see if possible at all.

Although I realize that doing that must be quite a bit of work, it is very accurate, and it really should be done. But please don't make this your priority, there are tons of stuff to do before this.

I was hoping to avoid making new units and there's a Norman Knight, but I think there were Knights of Antioch there as well, somewhere. Castor Troy made an Edessan Knight recently, though this I wanted to use only for an event (once you flip Edessa, you get a one-of-a-kind Knight unit etc.). KoJ already uses a dismounted UU.

LOL! Ya its fine, then I would suggest just renaming the "Norman Knights" to "Knights of Antioch", and perhaps change their texture just a bit to include the Antiochian flag (the blue and red one) . And thats true KoJ already has dismounted knights, but I thought it would be cool to have those ax wielding soldiers of god, but I think the Knights of Antioch are good as well!

I like the Norman Church idea, though I'd hope they don't spread Catholicism everywhere... will see. But a church with military bonus is great.

Thanks! I hope you end up using it! But first off, I would strongly consider changing the name, "Norman Church" just sounds awkward and weird, does ANYBODY have any other suggestions for the name of the Antioch UB? But why don't you like the idea that they spread Catholicism (so basically they don't require any religion)? The historical pointer to this, was because the Principality of Antioch covered areas which were DEEPLY devout Orthodox Christians, (of Armenian or Byzantine origin), but even though the crusaders were a tiny Catholic minority in a mass of Muslims and Orthodox Christians, they still removed the Orthodox Patriarch from Antioch, and replaced it with a Catholic Patriarch (of French origin I believe?), so if you remove the Catholics from Antioch like I have advised you to, it makes sense to give their churches that ability, in fact both the KoJ and Principality of Antioch should get ONLY ONE Catholic Missionary, due to the shear minority they were in a land of Orthodox Christians and Muslims (and of course Jews). And yes of course, the idea of them getting a military bonus would be swell as well

UP probably Norman Fervor. Franco-Mongol alliance related won't work well because it would hit in 1260, and the Principality ceased to exist a few years later.

Ya, forget about the Franco-Mongol alliance, just another idea I thought I would throw out. So now that you picked Norman Fervor, what idea are you going with exactly?

2 conquest UHVs + Venetian one is good, it won't be easy - normally you'll only get 3 coastal cities: Antioch, Tripoli and Tarsus, which means all three would have to have Venetians. Might be difficult or impossible, unless you also kill KoJ to get rid of competition.

Well lets try it out, the fact is that we can't really label it as "hard" till we try it out right ? But if its too hard then we can reduce the number of cities that need the Venetian Merchants. Also you are changing the KoJ UHV right? I think instead of that horrible resources one, I would instead include, conquer all of the Levant (destroy the PoA) by X date.

This is a problem for 2 reasons:
- the AI will try to convert to Islam or Orthodoxy; I may completely disable conversions, but it'd be no fun either, as some "what if" cases are good. Currently it's almost impossible for them to switch, but if they have no cities with Catholicism at all, they'll abandon it.
- same with the human player - one easy way to get out of the bad political situation is to switch to Islam... well maybe at least that should be disabled, after all.

Personally I would make it so ONLY the human player can convert, because I hate seeing an Orthodox Christian Zengid Empire, I mean really?? Also you should definitely stop the Crusaders from converting, its kind of stupid. BUT, I would keep it open for some civ's especially the Indian ones, that might be tempted to convert to Islam later on, that to me makes sense.

So if I were you I would stop most civs from being able to convert (except for the Indians, Byzantines, Egyptians). And to convince the Human player, when they are playing as KoJ or PoA, you should make their UP's rely on them having the Catholic religion as their state religion, that makes sense. So basically the Pope will no longer fund them with free troops, if they have become Muslims, I think if anything that makes the most sense.

I would still encourage you to remove ALL traces of Catholicism in the Levant, except in Tripoli (the Maronites of Lebanon, who predate the crusades). Everywhere else, Catholicism should be removed, INCLUDING in Antioch and Jerusalem, because in reality, they had tiny tiny populations of Catholic Monks in Jerusalem, if not none, and perhaps no Catholics at all in Antioch before the Crusades. So again, the logic behind the crusaders getting very little missionaries, is because there were VERY little catholics in the region, its just like in MTW2 SS or even BC, both mods make the Catholics in the Levant a minority in a sea of Orthodox Christians and Muslims, and the same should apply in this game, the Crusaders SHOULD struggle with religious distention, they after all killed massive amounts of Jew, Muslims and EVEN Eastern Christians, when they took Jerusalem.

So in conclusion, I hope that convinces you!
Thanks for reading

PS.
Almost forgot to mention, I agree 100% with corovanrobber, the island of Cyprus and Rhodes are NEVER conquered! If I were you I would have a city on Cyprus from the beginning, rather then having it spawn later, but yes those Islands should be captured. A cause of this may be the massive amounts of pirate ships, do you mind putting less barb ships in the Mediterranean, it would make EVERYONE's life a bit easier, especially with fishing boats, which I have know found a hopeless cause, because they get destroyed so easily. And the one ship which you grant to the Byzantines, can't survey that much coast, so instead of giving the Byzantines and Egyptians ships (Yes I think the Egyptians should start of with 1 war ship), could you please reduce the amount of barbarian pirate ships? Thanks! Also instead of calling them "Pirate Ships", I would call them Muslim Raiders, because that's really what they are, these are the pirates who took Rhodes, and many islands in Greece away from the Byzantines.

By the way after playing a bit with v0.1.2, (which is supposed to fix AI civs from respawning in a short time), the Abbasids collapsed in 1200AD (I was thrilled, they were a pain), and the Seljuks moved in to take over their territory (yay more historical accuracy!) BUT THEN, they respawned in about 10 turns, and they survived for so much longer!

 

[corovanrobber]

You can also notice that the city of Constantinople did not get renamed back to its Greek name after the Byzantines had retaken it from the Turks. (apparently)

 

[Jusos2108]

Well lets try it out, the fact is that we can't really label it as "hard" till we try it out right ? But if its too hard then we can reduce the number of cities that need the Venetian Merchants. Also you are changing the KoJ UHV right? I think instead of that horrible resources one, I would instead include, conquer all of the Levant (destroy the PoA) by X date.

I doubt that it would be too hard to get the merchants in. The 2nd KoJ UHV is actually one the best UHVs in the mod. The point of UHVs is that they challenging and fun to play for the human player. Conquering all of Levant would be boring and easy. Also I do and would always conquer Levant with them anyways.

Personally I would make it so ONLY the human player can convert, because I hate seeing an Orthodox Christian Zengid Empire, I mean really?? Also you should definitely stop the Crusaders from converting, its kind of stupid. BUT, I would keep it open for some civ's especially the Indian ones, that might be tempted to convert to Islam later on, that to me makes sense.

Definetly NO! This would take one aspect of the game away. Why do you want everything to be precise and historical anyways? This is a game limiting matter and it would only make it more boring. It is great that you have the possibility to convert your neighbours into your religion in order to boost up relations. For example, playing as the Abbasids you beat the Fatimids into submission and force them to convert into Sunni, then you get the open borders agreement, send in your missionaries and vóila, when Saladin spawns he will definetly follow Sunni. KoJ could be the only exception.

I would still encourage you to remove ALL traces of Catholicism in the Levant, except in Tripoli (the Maronites of Lebanon, who predate the crusades). Everywhere else, Catholicism should be removed, INCLUDING in Antioch and Jerusalem, because in reality, they had tiny tiny populations of Catholic Monks in Jerusalem, if not none, and perhaps no Catholics at all in Antioch before the Crusades. So again, the logic behind the crusaders getting very little missionaries, is because there were VERY little catholics in the region, its just like in MTW2 SS or even BC, both mods make the Catholics in the Levant a minority in a sea of Orthodox Christians and Muslims, and the same should apply in this game, the Crusaders SHOULD struggle with religious distention, they after all killed massive amounts of Jew, Muslims and EVEN Eastern Christians, when they took Jerusalem.

You want to erase Christianity from Jerusalem, their Holy City??
As embryodead explained that would cause the KoJ to convert into Sunni and make their UHV that much harder; as they currently work very well. If they couldn't convert, this would most likely result to them collapsing even sooner in every game. Currently their livespan in my games has been around 20 turns.

I think that you are focusing a bit too much on the historical part, this is after all just a game and point is to enjoy playing it.

BTW embryodead, the KoJ's stability issues (if you read my posts on the previous page?) are probaly due to their extremely poor foreign relationships. This should be changed, I know that Rhye made Japan (and China?) to endure few foreign contacts and poor relations in RFC.

 

[MessageMan]

in fact both the KoJ and Principality of Antioch should get ONLY ONE Catholic Missionary, due to the shear minority they were in a land of Orthodox Christians and Muslims (and of course Jews). And yes of course, the idea of them getting a military bonus would be swell as well

The KoJ starts out with two missionaries because one is for Acre and the other is for Aqabah, I think. Otherwise Aqabah doesn't get any culture.

Well lets try it out, the fact is that we can't really label it as "hard" till we try it out right ? But if its too hard then we can reduce the number of cities that need the Venetian Merchants. Also you are changing the KoJ UHV right? I think instead of that horrible resources one, I would instead include, conquer all of the Levant (destroy the PoA) by X date.

I like the resource one. Though I think if there was incense in Egypt at the time it could be placed there as motivation for the KoJ to invade it.

the Crusaders SHOULD struggle with religious distention, they after all killed massive amounts of Jew, Muslims and EVEN Eastern Christians, when they took Jerusalem.

They do. There's a ton of other religions in the Levant and it's a pain to get rid of them since you can only build one persecutor at a time. I don't know why embryo imposed that limit though.

As a side-note, can you eliminate religions in other peoples' cities? What about vassals?

PS.
Almost forgot to mention, I agree 100% with corovanrobber, the island of Cyprus and Rhodes are NEVER conquered! If I were you I would have a city on Cyprus from the beginning, rather then having it spawn later, but yes those Islands should be captured. A cause of this may be the massive amounts of pirate ships, do you mind putting less barb ships in the Mediterranean, it would make EVERYONE's life a bit easier, especially with fishing boats, which I have know found a hopeless cause, because they get destroyed so easily. And the one ship which you grant to the Byzantines, can't survey that much coast, so instead of giving the Byzantines and Egyptians ships (Yes I think the Egyptians should start of with 1 war ship), could you please reduce the amount of barbarian pirate ships? Thanks! Also instead of calling them "Pirate Ships", I would call them Muslim Raiders, because that's really what they are, these are the pirates who took Rhodes, and many islands in Greece away from the Byzantines.

I haven't played the Byzantines, but from my experience with the KoJ the pirates were fine. Though if you're worried build/hire a couple ships before you build your fishing boats. Make it more historical by recreating the revival of Byzantine's naval power under Manuel I Komnenos, since you seem to dig that stuff.

 

[corovanrobber]

Definetly NO! This would take one aspect of the game away. Why do you want everything to be precise and historical anyways? This is a game limiting matter and it would only make it more boring. It is great that you have the possibility to convert your neighbours into your religion in order to boost up relations. For example, playing as the Abbasids you beat the Fatimids into submission and force them to convert into Sunni, then you get the open borders agreement, send in your missionaries and vóila, when Saladin spawns he will definetly follow Sunni. KoJ could be the only exception.

I had fun vassalising Muslim civs as the Kingdom of Jerusalem, spreading Catholicism there, and asking them to convert to Christianity. Joao willingly accepts Shia Islam after taking some cities in India as well.

Armenia's almost always Catholic in late starts. Shiite Georgia is common too. Sunni Gujarat... who cares though.

 

[Jusos2108]

Can somebody tell me what counts as Levant, Hejaz and Egypt for the Fatimid UHV. It is 1141 and I have Lower and Upper Egypt, Hejaz (Medina and Mekka) and Levant up to Antioch. Is that enough?

 

[embryodead]

Can somebody tell me what counts as Levant, Hejaz and Egypt for the Fatimid UHV. It is 1141 and I have Lower and Upper Egypt, Hejaz (Medina and Mekka) and Levant up to Antioch. Is that enough?

Assuming there are no AI cities in those areas, yeah.