The West's Cultural Narcissism: An Examination of Tolkien's Orcs

[Evie]

John D Rateliff was commissionned by the Tolkien estate and Christopher Tolkien to write the history of Tolkien's development of the Hobbit based on in depth study of Tolkien's manuscripts, notes and biography/influences - the equivalent of Christopher Tolkien's own work on the History of the Silmarillion, Lord of the Rings and so on in History of Middle Earth.

I'd say that short of being Christopher Tolkien himself, that's about as unimpeachable a set of credentials as exists in Tolkien scholarship. And when it comes specifically to 1930s Hobbit-era dwarves, Mr. Rateliff may well be the foremost expert. And that nothing I said should be a surprise to anyone actually interested in Tolkien beyond the world he created.

In any event, Letters from JRR Tolkien, letter 176: "I do think of the 'dwarves' like jews". Which part exactly Tolkien had in mind is somewhat open, but the Jewish-Dwarvish connection is plainly stated.

 

[Lexicus]

Can you cite the actual Tolkien quote? I'm not doubting you, just that I didn't see it, which I fully admit may be an oversight on my part. I read the Wiki article you linked, which only quoted "John D. Rateliff"'s opinion, but he didn't quote Tolkien himself in his opinion.

EDIT: I think I may have found it:

So he said he didn't intend it, but that, 30+ years later when asked about it in hindsight... people's bathroom mirrors might suggest it?

Literally just admit you were wrong it isn't that hard

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Wait is OP arguing for same bullcrap EXTRA credit argued eons ago?

 

[RobAnybody]

Literally just admit you were wrong it isn't that hard

I would, but Tolkien is literally quoted addressing in an interview the exact subject at hand: Tolkien spoke about the Jewish-dwarvish connection during a BBC interview. "I didn't intend it,..."

I don't see how someone else's interpretation of his works, no matter how qualified, should supersede the man's own words on the subject.

Here's the link to his own words.
https://www.theonering.net/torwp/20...ns-dwarves-an-allegory-for-the-jewish-people/
And in the next paragraph after the actual quote, it includes the aforementioned reference: "According to Tolkien scholar John Rateliff, author of a two-volume “Hobbit” history published in 2007, Tolkien drew inspiration from Hebrew texts and Jewish history when developing the dwarves." that has been cited here, with no actual evidence. I'll take the first-hand quote over the "unimpeachable scholar" hired by the Estate, some 60-70 years after the work was written & 30+ years after the man died.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Pretty sure it was based on WW1
With the Orcs being the Germans, Elves British, Eagles America. Since Tokien wrote much of the story while he fought in the trenches

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Reinterpreting old works of fiction to fit modern narratives like this thread doing, is not dis similar from the many reinterpretations of the bible we have seen over the centuries. there is usually an agenda to support some current cause and significant cherry picking of supporting passages and ignoring of those that don't support the reinterpretation. Fun times!

I wouldn't say OP is reïnterpreting an old work to fit a modern narrative, more so musing on the way the 'West' (which dominates global media) viewed/views the world, and how that view influenced old works and why Westerners are resorting back to those works in response to modern developments.

 

[Snowygerry]

Tolkien is hardly the standard of the "western civilization", you might as well analyze the oeuvre of Walt Disney...

Didn't he write the books for his children ?

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Tolkien is hardly the standard of the "western civilization", you might as well analyze the oeuvre of Walt Disney...

Tolkien drew on the same myths and stories that influence much of the Western narrative framework.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

It's really important to deal with the fire at hand and not hoard context and nuance where its not appropriate.

Wars of conquest by dictators, replete with direct attacks on civilians and terroristic torture of captives should be addressed with "this is evil and must be stopped." No one thinks Russian people are irredeemable orcish, but nor should we stop and go "this is evil and must be stopped but also not everyone is evil and let's remember not to dehumanize the attackers". We can worry about that second.

Wars happen. You can't stop them, do much about them. Likening Russians to orcs will not bring peace to Ukraine, but refraining from racist caricatures might go a long way to ensure we have less of that rot in the world.

 

[Snowygerry]

Tolkien drew on the same myths and stories that influence much of the Western narrative framework.

So did Walt Disney - but neither was terribly insightful, Tolkien was largely ignored in his time, only became popular in the 1970s iirc.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

So did Walt Disney - but neither was terribly insightful, Tolkien was largely ignored in his time, only became popular in the 1970s iirc.

You seem to think I am saying that Tolkien introduced the Western PoV. The imagery in his works, of a peaceable yet valiant people threatened by hordes of outsiders with harsh-sounding names, predates him. That Tolkien's work was not immediately popular does not discount the influence of the prevalent milieu.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

'peaceable yet valiant people threatened by hordes of outsiders with harsh-sounding names'

That PoV exists since living organisms gathered in groups to form bigger entities.

 

[Snowygerry]

You seem to think I am saying that Tolkien introduced the Western PoV. The imagery in his works, of a peaceable yet valiant people threatened by hordes of outsiders with harsh-sounding names, predates him. That Tolkien's work was not immediately popular does not discount the influence of the prevalent milieu.

I'm sure it does yes - "From the Fury of the Northmen, O lord deliver us...."

“Ann. 793 – In this year dire forewarnings came over the land of the Northumbrians, and miserably terrified the people; these were extraordinary whirlwinds and lightenings, and fiery dragons were seen flying in the air. A great famine soon followed these omens; and soon after that, in the same year, the havoc of heathen men miserably destroyed God’s church on Lindisfarne. . .”

The Vikings in Ireland: “From the Fury of the Northmen, O Lord Deliver Us” – Irish Fireside Travel and Culture

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

And?

 

[Akka]

I'm sure that when a country is invaded by a barbaric regime which made war crimes a systematic policy, the important point to keep in mind is to remember about the claimed racism and self-absorption of the West. We really need some more autoflagellation and making it all about the West (especially how the West is self-centered and ignorant of the rest of the world), someone could have forgotten about it in the five minutes that it wasn't raised yet again.

 

[Snowygerry]

Independent freedom-loving people invaded by mindless hordes pre-dates classic Western European culture even, the Greeks used the same imagery to portray the Persian invaders,

usually they were either called "heathens" or "barbarians"...they only became "orcs" in the 1970s I think.

 

[Samson]

Tolkien is hardly the standard of the "western civilization", you might as well analyze the oeuvre of Walt Disney...

You do not think they shall be analysing the output of Walt Disney and Disney corp. as an insight into western civilization for as long as humans have history?

 

[Snowygerry]

Well they should - Snow White and the seven Dwarfs is every bit as influential as the Hobbit imho

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

No one is disputing the brutality of the Russian invasion, but some people don't like it when you point out that racist propagandist caricatures are in bad taste and harmful – even  problematic?

 

[Samson]

Well they should - Snow White and the seven Dwarfs is every bit as influential as the Hobbit imho

Totally. Snow White and the seven Dwarfs was a revolutionary moment in human culture.