This is a topic where I clear up a few misconceptions about reloading.

[Monkeyfinger]

That is to say, saving your game, and reloading either it or an autosave and playing things out differently when something goes to pot, like a 2-turn loss of a wonder or a heavy attack from a neighbor on a lightly guarded border, etc. In my ~2 years here I've seen a steady trickle of these myths from players of all skill levels, and today I'm feeling irritated enough to shoot them to pieces.

1) Reloading is cheating

Easiest one to address, this one is objectively false. Cheating is when you break the rules to give yourself an advantage, to let yourself win when you'd otherwise lose. Unrestricted saving and loading is built into the game's engine. It's part of the singleplayer game's rules. It's not breaking them. Therefore, it is not cheating. Playing ironman style is imposing your own artificial restriction on yourself. It's not part of them game.

This is not my opinion. It is hard, indisputable fact. If you disagree, you are wrong. That's all there is to the cheating issue.

Of course, something doesn't necessarily have to be cheating to be a bad habit. Some people have other problems with it. These are more subjective. But they don't apply to everyone.

2)Reloading is a crutch. Any reloader is playing on a skill level too high for him if he wins games that he doesn't play ironman style.

3) Stopping yourself from reloading adds challenge and tension that otherwise aren't there.

These two are easiest for me to address together.

They apply to some players, but not all. Personally, stopping myself from reloading wouldn't have made me lose any games. It wouldn't have added suspense and tension. It would have added extra tedium before my inevitable win, as the minor mistakes and bad-happenings added up enough to bog me down but not stop me.

I like to think that I speak for quite a few players when I say that in strategy games, I play on whatever level is on that sweet spot of being tough enough to put up a token struggle, but easy enough not to be threatening; at the peak of my skill this was emperor but everyone's mileage will vary. Regardless, "it's a crutch" is no reason not to do it in this situation, because... it's not.

I guess you could say that players like me use the "could you win reliably without savescumming" method of picking the right difficulty, but ironically this means we don't have to hold ourselves to that. We know we can do it, and are not masochistic enough to feel the need to bother. Nothing to prove here.

(Sidebar: Moving above that level isn't really worth my time because while I understand what would have to be done to win consistently, it would involve physically wasting my time making all the optimal moves, something I'm not masochistic/"patient" enough for. This tangent isn't very relevant though, I'll admit.)

4) You shouldn't reload because it doesn't help you (as much to) get better at the game

...so? If improving your skill is actually a reason you're playing you're doing it wrong. Getting better at a game is a nice side benefit that comes with playing in a way you find enjoyable. It is NOT a goal, in and of itself. It's just something that happens naturally unless you're totally off your rocker.

In conclusion:

If you refrain from reloading for reasons 1 or 4, do CFC and the world at large a favor by swallowing a bucketfull of rusty nails. If you use reasons 2 and/or 3, that's okay. You want different a different experience than me and are imposing a restriction on yourself to get it. Be humble when you talk about it, though. Don't act all high and mighty. Don't say things like "only noobs/kiddies" reload (some do this.) Because those of us who actually have the right to be stuck up and arrogant about our intellect can't even possibly GET that kind of challenging, suspenseful experience from games like this. We play for other reasons and it's beneath us to let ironman get in our way.

 

[Volapyk]

As a re-loader my self I have to agree with your points.

From a purely argue point of view you first point isn't actually that solid. Yes, if we define cheating as "breaking the rules to give yourself an advantage", and anything the game supports is following the rules, is saying that using the worldbuilder isn't cheating either, just to give you an example.

The only thing I have a slight issue with is the new seed upon reloading, it can be abused to a point I would call cheating.

Your point number 4 is great, what better way to improve your skills than to reload and learn how to avoid or prepare for any eventuality?

 

[pfo]

Re-loading can give you an advantage. Let's say you save, and 10 turns later another civ completes a wonder that you were going for, but decided not to waste a great engineer on. So, you re-load and use the GE to get it. The fact that you reloaded gave you an advantage in that you could change your decision in the past and get what was originally denied to you. Indisputable proof that reloading is cheating.

I personally don't care though, people can play how they want, but in my opinion the better players will play the hand they are dealt, not go back and change it.

 

[Volapyk]

Re-loading can give you an advantage. Let's say you save, and 10 turns later another civ completes a wonder that you were going for, but decided not to waste a great engineer on. So, you re-load and use the GE to get it. The fact that you reloaded gave you an advantage in that you could change your decision in the past and get what was originally denied to you. Indisputable proof that reloading is cheating.

I personally don't care though, people can play how they want, but in my opinion the better players will play the hand they are dealt, not go back and change it.

Sigh, I really shouldn't do this, but we all have our vices.

You are completely wrong! Or you are certainly making some wrong arguments.

You are saying that doing something that gives you an advantage is cheating!
Well try starting a game and before any action ask yourself, will this give me an advantage? You will find the whole game is about taking advantage of different opportunities right from deciding to build a city rather than have just a settler.

The key to the issue of cheating is when is something breaking the rules and when it isn't. Cheating has actually very little with giving yourself an advantage and more with simply breaking the rules.

A little tip to you both though, never claim some argument is indisputable, there is always some way to counter argue or look at things from a different perspective.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

4) You shouldn't reload because it doesn't help you (as much to) get better at the game

You can take this one further. If reloads are used properly, it's possible to improve MORE rapidly. It depends on how it's done:

- Reloading with random seeds to win a 5 axe vs 3 archer battle will not improve your skill.
- Reloading at key strategic points in a given game to see what impact different decisions have can easily teach a player a lot about the game. Especially if it yields a "why did I lose" and "how could I have won" revelation.

Reloading is only "cheating" in series like XOTM and HoF, but it's actively policed there (...more like the HoF mod crashes if you even try, though that wasn't intended ). I also will reload in situations where my hardware fails me. For example, this computer has a mouse that tends to double-click, and I unintentionally ended a war early when I wanted a vassal in a time-critical situation. Another situation is when I click on a name WITHOUT pressing alt, to initiate a trade, and the game declares war. I'm not willing to put up with that garbage. If anyone seriously feels that's cheating, they can go to hell .

 

[CLST]

It doesn't matter if you reload or not.

I don't, because I get tired of looking at the same map just playing the game the first time, and don't want to go back and try a different path, when I could just try a different game.

And of course, if you are using information from future in the game to reload, then you are definitely cheating.

I would say that if you want to reload responsibly/legitimately only save at critical junctions, say right before a war declare or capitulation. Then you can go back and see how things would've gone if you played it out differently, maybe warring another person, or annihlating a civ fully.

This is probably a lot more helpful.

 

[Crusher1]

Only cheating like Team said, legit sanctioned events.

In most other circumstances it tends to lead towards unskilled, uncoordinated, and poor play. Do some people genuinely use the feature to learn and reach new goals? Sure they do, but, I'm willing to bet the average player using the feature is simply sloshing through a game they should have been putting more concerted thought into in the first place and end up finding themselves in an "O $hit" situation - RELOAD.

On the whole it should be avoided if a goal is to achieve greater skill. Otherwise, you're thinking in the back of my head, it doesn't matter what happens next because I can simply reload. If every game was played with "lock modified assets" players would be forced to play with 100% concentration and effort which will lead to a much quicker and higher learning curve giving the community a significant increase in skilled players, not just reloaders.

 

[Lord N.]

Cheating is when you break the rules to give yourself an advantage, to let yourself win when you'd otherwise lose. Unrestricted saving and loading is built into the game's engine. It's part of the singleplayer game's rules. It's not breaking them. Therefore, it is not cheating.

By that definition, entering a World Builder to give yourself an advantage is also not cheating. Like reloading, it is built into the engine.

Anyway, I don't see reloading as cheating. You play for fun and if reloading makes you happy, go for it.

Personaly, I almost never reload. A few times that I made an exception was when I lost some unique units (like highly experienced privateer or a GG unit) with 99% odds. But that didn't change the progress of the game as I was already winning, with or without those units.

Generaly speaking, I don't realy see the point of reloading. Loosing now and then is part of the game and reloading to get me out of a bad situation won't make me happy. Actualy some of the most interesting games I've played, and the ones I remember with great joy are the ones I lost.

Having said that, I agree with TheMeInTeam that reloading a game from a critical point in time, in order to take a different approach, can improve your skill.

 

[DABegley]

Reloading is not cheating unless you are in a competition. This is a game not a contest, it's a game. Now if someone reloads after every 51% odds battle they lose and then submits the game to the Hall of Fame they are slimy, dishonest and arguably a liar but not a cheater unless the rules of the HOF expressly forbid reloading.

I reload in three circumstances;

1. A completely unreasonable and unpredictable result occurs that ruins a game you have put a measurable investment of time in. This has to be a game breaker and probably an early event and I don't mean Monty shows up on my border with 3 times the total # of troops I have in the world or losing a wonder by one turn. Those are examples of BLEEP happens. I rarely do this, normally if the game is totally wrecked by an event I restart because my favorite part of the game is the explore/expand early portion. It's personal judgment on what level of hosing you can tolerate from the game before you reload but no matter what it's not cheating. You play for fun against a computer, enjoy the game.

2. As a training exercise. The last game I played I reached a decision point where there were three ways I could go. I chose one and played it out. I then went back and tried the other two options to see how they worked out.

3. Because of a Homer Simpson "Doh" moment. Forgetting to do something that you fully intended to do but got distracted from by life. You hate it when real life interferes with gaming. For example researching Monotheism fully intending to change to OR and hitting the wrong button when you change Civics and not realizing it for 1000 years. "Doh."

In any case it is a game, you play the way you feel comfortable with and enjoy the game doing. Just make sure your honest about it when talking to other players. Don't talk about victories where you reloaded alot unless your upfront about it.

 

[King Kalmah]

Re-loading can give you an advantage. Let's say you save, and 10 turns later another civ completes a wonder that you were going for, but decided not to waste a great engineer on. So, you re-load and use the GE to get it. The fact that you reloaded gave you an advantage in that you could change your decision in the past and get what was originally denied to you. Indisputable proof that reloading is cheating.

I personally don't care though, people can play how they want, but in my opinion the better players will play the hand they are dealt, not go back and change it.

And then what if the AI builds up his army whilke your playing Wonderspam?

He will march in when you used your time to whip/pop a GE to build the wonder.Then the game is tottally different in the reason that the AI would have been focused on the enemy and not on how turns are left to build the wonder...

I have stolen a wonder once from Issabella and she went to war production(she does like to build military)I bet Monty would do the same thing....wait Monty never builds wonders....has anyone seen monty build a wonder?

 

[Volapyk]

Funny you mention it, monty just pulled a cultural win on me today Damn immortal diff still only getting the hang of it. Anyway the 3 legendary cities all had 3+ wonders, with his capitol containing 8 :O

 

[nullspace]

Play the game however you like. But if you're save/reloading a lot, don't brag about your genius strategies or how the game is too easy.

Whoops, too late.

Because those of us who actually have the right to be stuck up and arrogant about our intellect can't even possibly GET that kind of challenging, suspenseful experience from games like this.

 

[Ammar]

Obviously reloading gives you an unfair advantage. Civ 4 is balanced around both parties having the same set of rules (production, research handicaps don't change that). Reloading breaks that symmetry and gives you foreknowledge of what is about to happen.

In fact theoretically you can win any winnable Civ 4 scenario just by reloading. Just use the backtrack algorithm. You wouldn't even have to think about it.

 

[sydhe]

I use reloading mostly for "D'oh" moments, like using the Great Prophet to lightbulb Meditation rather than Theology because I forgot I hadn't researched it yet, or one memorable occasion when I accidentally told an island city to build Palace and REALLY increased maintenance costs.

EDIT: And, of course, pressing Enter too quickly and giving my second city or the city I spent ten units conquering to an AI.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

I mostly agree with everyone above. Do whatever you want, it's a game. But for me personally, I like to play ironman style as much as possible, only doing a reload perhaps once the game is over and I want to see "what if I had done this." Getting more skilled is what makes the game fun for me.

But I also agree that you can't keep reloading when you lose at 95% odds, win a dom victory, and then come on here and proclaim your greatness. Or if you lose a wonder by a couple of turns. I don't know if I'd call it cheating, but can your opponents reload when they lose a wonder by a turn or two?

Still, in the end, do whatever makes the game fun. I've had fun on occasion going up a level or two and giving myself some random techs via worldbuilder. Just to keep the game fresh ya know. Everyone plays for different reasons. I know there are people out there who love the roleplaying aspect, some want to win at any costs, and others want to play well past 2050 regardless of a score being kept or not.

 

[Asjo]

I must say that once I skimmed the arguements of Monkeyfinger, I was quite put off. Obviously this guy was feeling bad about being called a cheater, but at the same time he's silly enough to be arrogant without thinking his arguments through. There are different definitions to cheating depending on the context, and as Ammar eloquently points out, the definition that people use is in regard to the question whether you are a level playing ground with the AI or you are "cheating". There's nothing wrong is calling it cheating.

Obviously, it's annoying to have all those self-righteous people roaming the forums with comments about how you ought to play and how you should prove your skill level. The competition obviously plays a huge role in their enjoyment of the game, and therefore they focus on this. There is really no need to discuss this since it's simply a matter of opinion. Maybe Monkeyfinger could use a bit of their insight if he doesn't feel not reloading adds to the excitement. Obviously reloading would portray you as a weak player, but that need not be the case. It's not a misconception, but a simply assumption based on the fact that many novice players employ this kind of trial and error to reach their goal. Either way, it's only yourself you're fooling, which is why people are a bit obnoxious when they get anal about it.

Personally, I sometimes save more than once in very important rounds. When I'm nervous, at wartimes, I save every round even though I have auto-save. I do it mostly because I don't want the game to end, and if I does, I want to have a chance to go back. I feel that always having safety in reloading means that I'm never really challenged. I don't have to fear a sudden invasion if I can just reload. However, my situation, as it seems, is often different from that of Monkeyfinger. I set myself up for a loss, not a victory, and the only way I enjoy the game is when playing on even terms in a conquest-style game with a big battlefield. I do reload and have done so very much in the past, but I feel that it's a bad habit and I'm starting to try and challenge myself more. If feel the game is more exciting if I just go with it and don't feel I have to control everything. Everything doesn't have to be perfect, and if I strain to make it that way, things lose their significance.

 

[grommit5]

Is Worldilder cheating? Or is it setting your own custom difficulty level? Just a thought.

 

[Zack]

1) Reloading is cheating

Easiest one to address, this one is objectively false. Cheating is when you break the rules to give yourself an advantage, to let yourself win when you'd otherwise lose. Unrestricted saving and loading is built into the game's engine. It's part of the singleplayer game's rules. It's not breaking them. Therefore, it is not cheating. Playing ironman style is imposing your own artificial restriction on yourself. It's not part of them game.

This is not my opinion. It is hard, indisputable fact. If you disagree, you are wrong. That's all there is to the cheating issue.

Of course, something doesn't necessarily have to be cheating to be a bad habit. Some people have other problems with it. These are more subjective. But they don't apply to everyone.

Can the AI reload if something doesn't go it's way? Reloading is just as much cheating as WorldBuilder is. Sure it's in the game, but there are many exploits in the game, like the infinite GP one, among others. Would you say Worldbuildering (?) 50 tanks at the beginning of every game is cheating? It's built into the game. It's all based on opinion. This is your opinion, not fact. It depends on how you use reloading. If you use it in the TMIT does, that's obviously not cheating. But if you reload because something didn't go your way, then you are cheating yourself.

2)Reloading is a crutch. Any reloader is playing on a skill level too high for him if he wins games that he doesn't play ironman style.

Not necessarily. If you look around on the forums, there are instances where players have gotten stacks of Cannons/Riflemen taken out by Medieval units. If they decided to reload, does that mean he is playing on a difficulty level that is too high for him? No, it just means he had bad luck with the RNG.

3) Stopping yourself from reloading adds challenge and tension that otherwise aren't there.

These two are easiest for me to address together.

They apply to some players, but not all. Personally, stopping myself from reloading wouldn't have made me lose any games. It wouldn't have added suspense and tension. It would have added extra tedium before my inevitable win, as the minor mistakes and bad-happenings added up enough to bog me down but not stop me.

I like to think that I speak for quite a few players when I say that in strategy games, I play on whatever level is on that sweet spot of being tough enough to put up a token struggle, but easy enough not to be threatening; at the peak of my skill this was emperor but everyone's mileage will vary. Regardless, "it's a crutch" is no reason not to do it in this situation, because... it's not.

I guess you could say that players like me use the "could you win reliably without savescumming" method of picking the right difficulty, but ironically this means we don't have to hold ourselves to that. We know we can do it, and are not masochistic enough to feel the need to bother. Nothing to prove here.

(Sidebar: Moving above that level isn't really worth my time because while I understand what would have to be done to win consistently, it would involve physically wasting my time making all the optimal moves, something I'm not masochistic/"patient" enough for. This tangent isn't very relevant though, I'll admit.)

If your win is inevitable, then why reload?

4) You shouldn't reload because it doesn't help you (as much to) get better at the game

...so? If improving your skill is actually a reason you're playing you're doing it wrong. Getting better at a game is a nice side benefit that comes with playing in a way you find enjoyable. It is NOT a goal, in and of itself. It's just something that happens naturally unless you're totally off your rocker.

But it doesn't happen naturally if you reload.

In conclusion:

If you refrain from reloading for reasons 1 or 4, do CFC and the world at large a favor by swallowing a bucketfull of rusty nails. If you use reasons 2 and/or 3, that's okay. You want different a different experience than me and are imposing a restriction on yourself to get it. Be humble when you talk about it, though. Don't act all high and mighty. Don't say things like "only noobs/kiddies" reload (some do this.) Because those of us who actually have the right to be stuck up and arrogant about our intellect can't even possibly GET that kind of challenging, suspenseful experience from games like this. We play for other reasons and it's beneath us to let ironman get in our way.

I'm not going to stoop down and call reloaders noobs or kiddies. I'm not swallowing a bucketful of rusty nails either. Everyone doesn't have to share you opinions on reloading. These are all opinions, not facts. Do what you want with the game, reload if you want to, play ironman if you want to. I personally don't reload, but my opinions on it shouldn't be everyone's opinion. So stop telling people to accept your opinions and swallow nails.