Tips with Venice

[z284pwr]

No. Instead your tourism must surpass the culture of every civ (seperately).

As for SPs, I'd stronlgy suggest to go tradition. Liberty can be useful, but for me the merchant from optics is usually enough. However, that being said: If the map setup is terrible and you find your capital to be placed in an inland sea or a cut-off part of the ocean, you will need a good city state or two to get those trade routes running.

I guess liberty might be the better option if you want to go for a science victory (and that is actually not that hard, considering that you will crank out a lot of beakers with your puppet cities).

Personally I stick to my tradition-super-wonder-city.

The problem I had with my current Venice game is that I fell enough behind in the tech tree the other civs can wonder spam before I even reach the technology to get to it.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I've played as Venice recently, but it was on Prince difficulty. If you play on a difficulty higher than prince, take this poster's opinion with a grain of salt, i suppose.

But anyway, Tradition is definitely the way to go with Venice. In my game i went with both Trad and Lib because i will never say no to one and potentially two Free cities and i usually pick Liberty anyway, but i maximized Tradition out first. Why? Because the City of Venice is where you should focus your energy. It is the only city where you can actually influence the building order, and therefore it's population, production and GP slots should be maxed out, if possible.

You don't really need Liberty anyway, even for the two free MoV. In my game, i had about 6 puppets by the midgame (three of which by conquest ... did i mention that Venice is an excellent warmonger under the right circumstances? No need to worry about Army upkeep or upgrade costs with Venice), all of which had merchant specialists and most of which (the ones next to fresh water anyway) had Gardens. Once the Merchants of Venice started rolling in from my puppets, i didn't need the free finisher MoV anymore.

So, I ended up using my free Liberty Finisher's GP on a great Engineer to rush the leaning tower of pisa in venice, which i still yielded me MORE Merchants of Venice from my puppets for the rest of the game. . I think focusing on GP generation (Gardens, leaning tower, freedom ideology) and of course the population that allows you to generate them is MUCH more important than Liberty. It's nifty and interesting, sure, but in no way AS important as Tradition imo. After Tradition, you should go after Commerce ASAP and then you can do what you want, i guess.

and i'll end this post by noting again that i usually go with Liberty over tradition in most given circumstances. But Venice, on Prince difficulty anyway, benefits WAY more from Tradition.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

The problem I had with my current Venice game is that I fell enough behind in the tech tree the other civs can wonder spam before I even reach the technology to get to it.

What difficulty level are you playing on?

On King I usually start with:
Pottery -> Writing -> Calendar -> Mining -> Mathematics
Scout -> Monument -> Shrine -> Great Library (Philosophy) -> National College -> Hanging Gardens
Works 95% of the time and gives amazing early game tech which I use to quickly get Ironworks (imho a must-have with all the new stuff available in the first half of the game).

I can usually keep up quite well throughout the game and - unless I got a runaway Alexander, Sejong or Zulu - I usually get ahead in the upper part of the tech tree. And late game science output becomes quite insane: Get the +2 science per specialist from rationalism, ally all the city states with your trade route money and you can easily run a specialist economy with every last slot filled in your capital. Add half food consumption and unhappiness from Freedom and you will notice an insane increase in your city growth.

It also worked on emperor, but there you will probably miss a few more midgame wonders (and can get quite screwed by a runaway).

 

[z284pwr]

What difficulty level are you playing on?

On King I usually start with:
Pottery -> Writing -> Calendar -> Mining -> Mathematics
Scout -> Monument -> Shrine -> Great Library (Philosophy) -> National College -> Hanging Gardens
Works 95% of the time and gives amazing early game tech which I use to quickly get Ironworks (imho a must-have with all the new stuff available in the first half of the game).

I can usually keep up quite well throughout the game and - unless I got a runaway Alexander, Sejong or Zulu - I usually get ahead in the upper part of the tech tree. And late game science output becomes quite insane: Get the +2 science per specialist from rationalism, ally all the city states with your trade route money and you can easily run a specialist economy with every last slot filled in your capital. Add half food consumption and unhappiness from Freedom and you will notice an insane increase in your city growth.

It also worked on emperor, but there you will probably miss a few more midgame wonders (and can get quite screwed by a runaway).

Normally King but I went Prince to try to get a hang of the new culture/tourism. Early game I did great as I had tons of food to grow population. I was too far away from civs for trade routes and made the mistake of not puppeting a city state with the first merchant. Once the population peaked Morocco and Persia started running away so I've been 5-8 technologies behind most of the time which isn't so amazing on prince. I'm on a different continent with the 3 dud civs so even the trade routes in late game are weak so GPT isn't amazing enough to out buy Morocco on city states.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

It is vital that you use that merchant from optics to get a city state with good ocean connection. I have had games where a single tile of ice ruined everything for me - thats actually why I now run scout first as Venice. Your failure to utilize that merchant to puppet a city state is equal to an Assyria player losing his first three siege towers: a gamechanging blunder.

You have to be aware of your surroundings. You need to discover other cities to be able to trade with them. If you cannot use all your trade routes during the mid game, you will fail. Also: Remember that you can build cargo ships in venice and sent them to your puppet (or rushbuy them there).

So be careful where to use that first merchant and remember to get a harbour ASAP to boost your naval trade route length! You should make roughly 300 GPT during the late rennaisance, 500 during the industrial era and 700+ once you reach modern times.

As for being stuck on another continent: Use your second merchant (and if you dont get one don't be afraid to grab him via liberty) to puppet a city state near the other civs. Even if it takes him 15 turns to cross that ocean - these trade routes will pay off.

So, try again, pick a good city state, get a hang of setting up and protecting the trade routes. It takes a bit of time to get used to Venice, but once you figured it out it should work fine.

 

[Randall_Flagg]

I am just not seeing the importance of using the 1st MoV on a puppeting a CS. To me in my trial games, I always do better buying 2 caravans and one building. A CS that you cannot afford to use the buy option helps how that early?

2 trade routes that bring in hard cold gold seems better to me.

 

[Havard]

Is the culture victory still the Utopia project?

No. Culture win in BNW is the culture influence (tourism) win.

Edit: I'm slow

 

[GAGA Extrem]

I am just not seeing the importance of using the 1st MoV on a puppeting a CS. To me in my trial games, I always do better buying 2 caravans and one building. A CS that you cannot afford to use the buy option helps how that early?

A city state usually comes with excellent city pop, lots of buildings, several military units and a worker. Thats a lot of free hammers. Plus: Considering that you will be rolling in happiness, it is an efficient way to boost your science and gold income.

Maybe on short term 2 trade routes yield a bit more money, but the effect of another city is vastly superior to that on the long run. Plus: You can send cargo ships/caravans home to boost food or hammers in the capital - Venice is probably the best nation to do that, thanks to their abundance of early trade routes.

HOWEVER: I never rush Optics for that. I first focus to get GL, HG and then my Ironworks, so this merchant enters the game rather late. If you just beeline towards optics you will certainly get much less from a puppet city state.

 

[Teaf]

I am just not seeing the importance of using the 1st MoV on a puppeting a CS. To me in my trial games, I always do better buying 2 caravans and one building. A CS that you cannot afford to use the buy option helps how that early?

2 trade routes that bring in hard cold gold seems better to me.

If you buy the CS you have two cities generating structures, you can also buy units at the second. Having another city will also allow you to feed the capital with food and open up trade routes to places that were out of your reach. You'll also get their current army and their workers. Unless the CS has been wrecked by Barbarians you'll normally get 1-2 military units, 1 worker and probably an improved luxury when you take it with the MoV from Optics. So it's:

1 City
1 Worker
1-2 Military units
1 Luxury resource

vs

1 Caravan (2-6 GP/T)
1 Building

Merchant of Venice will generate 800 gold, which is 1 Caravan at 390 gold and 1 building, with some change left over. You could take the City-State, sell the Luxury for 6 GP/T to the AI and that's what the Caravan would be bringing in.

 

[z284pwr]

It is vital that you use that merchant from optics to get a city state with good ocean connection. I have had games where a single tile of ice ruined everything for me - thats actually why I now run scout first as Venice. Your failure to utilize that merchant to puppet a city state is equal to an Assyria player losing his first three siege towers: a gamechanging blunder.

You have to be aware of your surroundings. You need to discover other cities to be able to trade with them. If you cannot use all your trade routes during the mid game, you will fail. Also: Remember that you can build cargo ships in venice and sent them to your puppet (or rushbuy them there).

So be careful where to use that first merchant and remember to get a harbour ASAP to boost your naval trade route length! You should make roughly 300 GPT during the late rennaisance, 500 during the industrial era and 700+ once you reach modern times.

As for being stuck on another continent: Use your second merchant (and if you dont get one don't be afraid to grab him via liberty) to puppet a city state near the other civs. Even if it takes him 15 turns to cross that ocean - these trade routes will pay off.

So, try again, pick a good city state, get a hang of setting up and protecting the trade routes. It takes a bit of time to get used to Venice, but once you figured it out it should work fine.

Clearly my game went wrong. I'm passed turn 400 just finished railroad and making 200 gpt from 12 trade routes going out and only 2 from others coming in. Being on the dud island with a Byzantium religion runaway took away my tithe bonus too

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Clearly my game went wrong. I'm passed turn 400 just finished railroad and making 200 gpt from 12 trade routes going out and only 2 from others coming in. Being on the dud island with a Byzantium religion runaway took away my tithe bonus too

Nothing to be ashamed off. I also messed up my first two Venice games pretty bad.

Remember that it is always useful to send a cargo ship to a puppet city state to check if they can get some decent trade routes. Your capital might have the East India Company, a harbour and a market, but the distance and pop numbers might give your puppeted city state a decent first and second trade route compared to the 7th or 8th in your capital.

 

[Teaf]

Nothing to be ashamed off. I also messed up my first two Venice game pretty bad.
Remember that it is always useful to send a cargo ship to a puppet city state to check if they can get some decent trade routes.

I still mess up my Venice starts although 50/50 whether it's the maps "fault" for spawning me in a horrible place. Also, about the trade routes, you should just be able to go to your Trade Route Overview to view all the routes without having to send a Cargo Ship or Caravan there.

 

[z284pwr]

Nothing to be ashamed off. I also messed up my first two Venice games pretty bad.

Remember that it is always useful to send a cargo ship to a puppet city state to check if they can get some decent trade routes. Your capital might have the East India Company, a harbour and a market, but the distance and pop numbers might give your puppeted city state a decent first and second trade route compared to the 7th or 8th in your capital.

Since Venice needs to get the population for research do you suppose it's better to settle them on a coast with 3 fish for the future food or move inland and puppet a coast?

 

[homegrown]

First, I don't see very many coastal starts that have 3 fish. I see a LOT of coastal starts that don't have ANY water resources! That's why you settle a coastal Venice, then buy the closest coastal cs and start cargo shipping food from the cs to Venice. When Venice starts to outgrow that food, you puppet the next closest coastal cs, rinse and repeat. You are picking coastals because the food shipping is better and have a wider variety of potential trade partners themselves.

 

[joncnunn]

Just about finished with my first BNW game (as Venice).
I dropped down from my usual Emperor/Immortal from G&K to Prince between the new mechanics and their UA. In retrospect I should have played this on King based on me running away with techs so much.

Things I got right: Using first three trade routes to provide food to Venice; and keeping that import for most of the game. (On wrong in the same category; diverting them to production for 30 turns just for an achievement)

Right: Picking Piety. (There was lots of gold near Venice.) I'm now getting 110 faith per turn.

Wrong: Having Venice first run (and for a long time only run) Merchant specialists. Despite my big tech lead I almost ran out of time for anything other than a time victory due to insufficent tech. The puppet empire will produce plenty of merchants of venice without the capital focusing on it as well.

Wrong: Not choosing Rationalism. (Again science hurt a lot)

Wrong: The break even point for academy vs bulbing is later in the tech tree with BNW than Public Education. (Maybe Plastics?)

Wrong: Buying out too many city states just because I had the happiness to do so instead of using more of the 60 influence & double gold for allies. At least I stopped when there was still a few city states left instead of getting rid of all of them like I did in my first Austria game.

Wrong: Picking the wrong reformation belief. While it wasn't bad; my assumption that I could only buy faith buildings in Venice even with the belief turned out to be very faulty. I'd have been better off with the Jesuit School belief. (Which in those city states that were in that zone I did take full advantage of.)

Wrong: Diverting the music to Radio Towers for the Radio Free achievement. (So bad I used the time machine to right before messing up the placement for that one turn.) Also it seems I that one of the times I captured a city I went a few turns without their pieces placed in the right cities for theming bonuses.

As to how I'm going to win this game; it's going to be Diplomatic. The Babylon AI built too many uncontested wonders early on; and looks to be impossible to catch up before 2050 AD. I am though with Diplomatic assured, continuing to push tourism just to find out more accurately how close I could have come. (To any warmongers, Babylon has been my BFF the whole game, so it would feel wrong to DOW them.) Space ship victory would have been doable if the game lasted until 2100 AD.

Other things learned: If going for a space victory (in addition to running scientists, etc.) Venice should pick Freedom. The one tech that had a space ship part I reached was extremely reasonable to cash buy from the level 3 freedom ideology. With 30 to 50 more turns in the game than there are I could simply have bought all the parts as I reached the techs.

Venice can push a Cultural victory by making much more of an effort into the early & mid game Cultural wonders than I did for more works (and especially theming bonuses). Your puppets will build these buildings.

Edit: Game is now over. I officially won by UN. But I saved the turn before the vote, and tried abstaining. And won a Cultural victory that way several turns later.
(I had way underestimated how much tourism a single Great Musician makes after The Internet.)
And I might have also underestimated what turn the game would end by, since I played a few extra turns after that to complete the Space station. Now looks like if I had directed the research towards it that I might have also been able to launch the ship a turn before mandatory retirement.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

First, I don't see very many coastal starts that have 3 fish. I see a LOT of coastal starts that don't have ANY water resources! That's why you settle a coastal Venice, then buy the closest coastal cs and start cargo shipping food from the cs to Venice. When Venice starts to outgrow that food, you puppet the next closest coastal cs, rinse and repeat. You are picking coastals because the food shipping is better and have a wider variety of potential trade partners themselves.

This.
ALWAYS settle on the coast!
Coastal trade routes (even intern ones that ship food/hammers) are twice as powerful as their land counterparts. Even if you do not have any coastal ressource stay at the coast. Maybe spend a turn or two to get some better tiles (a river, for example), but you can always use maritime city states and cargo ships to compensate for the lack of food. It will only take 1-2 trade routes - and you can afford that.

Plus: Hanging gardens will give you a lot of food if you go tradition, so the city can reliably grow.

 

[dexters]

Quick clarification on East India company. Is the gold bonus (NOT) applied to existing trade routes until it expires and then you get the bonus /trade route through that city?

I've been noticing no big jump in GPT before and after I build it on Venice.

 

[Bex]

I still mess up my Venice starts although 50/50 whether it's the maps "fault" for spawning me in a horrible place. Also, about the trade routes, you should just be able to go to your Trade Route Overview to view all the routes without having to send a Cargo Ship or Caravan there.

I couldn't live without that trade overview. I check the available routes list sorted by gold whenever I build a new cargo ship and whenever I am about to renew a route.

 

[Heart Break Kid]

Have any of you guys fought wars with Venice yet? I just had Zulu rush my capital when my army was far, thankfully I purchased some units on sight and was able to repel him. I'm pretty sure my army is big enough to take one of his cities, should I counter attack? Turn 100 on King.


So from what I'm reading, you should be selective with the City states you take? Play tall, use the gold to get allies all around?

 

[fugitiveunknown]

Hey so I usually play civs going down Tradition. But when playing Venice, is it absolutly necessary to get Liberty for the Great Merchant? I usually like single sprawling citys that make stuff fast but It's much easier with Tradition. I dont know. Can you guys post what you guys think?

I never take liberty, it takes way too long and most of the tree isn't worth it.

IMO Venice works best as a "sort of OCC." Never buying in puppets and using cargo to give Venice all the food and hammers it needs to build itself into a supermegaultracity without increasing the unhappiness or social costs too much.

You can pick up more merchants just by getting market and bank reasonably early.

The +1 per 2 citizens is pretty much a requirement when your city is pushing 50 population in the late game.