Tithe?

[Talcove]

Agreed, a city needs to excert a pressure similar to the number of citizens following that religion. So larger number of followers = more pressure to surrounding cities. Holy city should still get the 30 point bonus. Religious buildings (Shrines, Temples) could also give a bonus to pressure.

But which religion would Shrines and Temples give bonus pressure to? Whichever religion has the majority of believers, the majority religion at the time the building was built, or all religions in the city?

 

[kaspergm]

But which religion would Shrines and Temples give bonus pressure to? Whichever religion has the majority of believers, the majority religion at the time the building was built, or all religions in the city?

Hmm yeah, good point. It would be cool if you could actually dedicate the Temple to a specific religion, wasn't that how it worked in Civ4? I know that we know have the religious buildings beliefs that fill this spot, and personally I would like to have that system changed so that each religion comes with a specific religious building (Christianity comes with Cathedral, Taoism comes with Pagoda, etc.), but now I think we're going off-topic on an off-topic discussion.

 

[Luckystrike77]

I would believe that was the reason for Tithe being so (over)powerful as it is, if not for the fact that AI never - never - picks Tithe. Instead, they seem to favor (wait for it) Reliquary. So if Firaxis indeed wanted to make some beliefs more powerful to make it a run for those, this just goes to show how far they are off the mark in the evaluation of their individual usefulnes.

Well, it's a good thing to get a religion fast as possible anyways if you go for tithe. You'd like it to start spreading asap.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think most religious beliefs should be made more powerful instead. The problem is that most of the religious beliefs are just terrible. There's a few that shine and for those, religion becomes worth the hassle. For most others, there's little point. You're probably better off just not bothering. That's bad design. It means you always pick the same small set of beliefs.

Part of the reason for doing this is to encourage you to want the better religion, even if it isn't your own. I do think Follower Beliefs need to be better, since the Founder gets quite a bit of things for his own and it would be nice to even that out a bit.

 

[Ulthwithian]

What with the Tourism impact on happiness, I have a feeling that the +happiness Founder belief will become more important, and it and Tithe will jockey for the top spot.

Regarding spread of religion, it would be very interesting if there was an 'anti-spreading' belief, such as 'Spread to friendly cities is increased by X%, and all other spread is reduced by Y%'. This could represent non-proselytizing religions (the most prominent, apparently, being Judaism), and would be taken by players who actively don't want to share their religion.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

What with the Tourism impact on happiness, I have a feeling that the +happiness Founder belief will become more important, and it and Tithe will jockey for the top spot.

Regarding spread of religion, it would be very interesting if there was an 'anti-spreading' belief, such as 'Spread to friendly cities is increased by X%, and all other spread is reduced by Y%'. This could represent non-proselytizing religions (the most prominent, apparently, being Judaism), and would be taken by players who actively don't want to share their religion.

You wouldn't need a penalty, just

A limited bonus to spreading
only in cities that already have the religion
or
only in friendly cities (National Religion..possibly only cities originally founded by you, or friendly cites with a courthouse)
or
Only from the Holy City [with Holy city status immune to Great Prophet Clearing effect]

or A penalty to Other religions spreading
(In cities that have the religion Or "friendly cities")


The bonus to spread could be a +%, or it could be a +base amount (every city originally owned as the founder has 1 cities worth of pressure from this religion)

Or Inquisitors can be used twice and have +2 move

It would be interesting to have a Founder belief that helped the religion spread (but didn't give other benefits for spreading)... in case you wanted a religion that really spread.

 

[Ulthwithian]

Krikkit: Perhaps, but a penalty to foreign pressure would more or less ensure that other civs will not have your religion, which was the design goal for the Belief.

Bonus inside, penalty outside creates a religion that doesn't spread itself but would be incredibly hard to penetrate with other religions. This seems to be the case with highly non-proselytizing religions.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I don't mind beliefs being not well balanced or situational. Actually, religion is the race - a civ getting religion first could get the best beliefs. The only thing I wouldn't like is completely useless beliefs.

 

[Antiphon]

I think religion is vastly underestimated by most players, but I must concede I haven't played higher than King yet and don't know if same mechanisms apply there. On King I have played at least once with every civ, every play style and all standard map types. To be clear, I don't care for religion in a third of games, that means I follow whatever faith my cities get, and build those mosques or whatever. In the second third of games, I have a religion on my own, but don't prioritise it, but use it as a "precision knife". That can mean i have Faith Healers (or Just War ) and snipe key cities with Great Prophets. This can save a helluva time on a campaign, taking the city and healing 55 hp the next turns. The FINAL third of my games is with religion as a key strategy, that means that I'd rather have a temple than granaries and rush Stonehenge instead of Pyramids, rushing to get both my preferred policies and my religion spread, so I can wreak havoc. And with havoc I don't mean Tithe (I don't prefer it, honestly), I mean something like a Pilgrimage and Holy War combo, or Peace Loving and Pagodas:c5happiness: AND Cathedrals AND Defenders of the Faith . In the middle game, I'd rather have 40 happiness than 50 gold.

Dear Tithe Fans,
could you explain to me how you can honestly call Tithe OP? What did I miss, do those 50 gold get multiplied, or is there some game mechanism I do not take into account? I have heard some people say that you don't need excess happiness, I disagree for two reasons. Golden Ages can get triggered as half or even twice as fast with this extra happiness, plus you never have downtimes while growing your cities or expanding your empire . With Ceremonial Burial spread wide (quarter to half of the map, don't get me started on late game 200+ Happiness on standard sized maps ), you can say good bye to happiness problems by midgame, and conquer and expand without jeopardizing the growth of your core empire. Please tell me, how do you usually do the same stuff with Tithe (remember +1 for 4 followers vs. +1 for 5 followers): In my calculation, that money is not quite enough to ally with CS to get the same effect for happiness, maybe on par if you invest into Patronage.

I DO realize however that the thread started out asking for "nerfing" Tithe and went on debating on usefulness of religion plus the way it got incorporated and how it is balanced. As I have experienced, depending on the situation MOST followers path can be worth it. I've had games gaining awful science with Mesenger of the Gods and Interfaith Dialogue, awsome wonderspamming due to Monument to the Gods and Religious Community and many more.

What IS broken in my opinion: Desert Folklore is one Pantheon Belief I think is really OP, because it gives you faith on Flood Plains, the very tiles you want to work anyways for . If you manage to get a good Petra city along the way, you can do some really scary stuff. And some Beliefs are UP, like Dance of the Aurora, because the only useful tile that qualifies working is game.

So after playing lots and lots of Gods and Kings, I do consider religion as an essential part of the game, not necessary to win, but so is neither war or culture (I have won games with no war at all, and completing only honor tree and digging some autocracy).

 

[Magstine]

Re spread speed: remember that religions are now also going to be spread through trade routes. Thus larger/more influential cities (especially coastal ones) will spread faster. I think changing the system much more would make other civs using a GP on your capital even more annoying.

While the founder beliefs aren't balanced they all more or less have a niche. Peace Loving is a bit weak, since if you need happiness then you're probably wide or warmongering so Ceremonial Burial is better, though not always available. Pilgrimage is probably the weakest because it requires you to spend faith to get faith, and its quite a while before it pays for itself. Initiation Rites and Interfaith Dialogue need to adjust for game-speed and Interfaith Dialogue needs something done to make it less abused. I'd recommend turning Founders up across the board to make you more inclined to actually give other civs the benefits of your religion (I've avoided spreading mine before because the +3 gold from 12 followers wasn't worth giving them +12% production from Religious Community, for example).

Enhancers tend to be pretty even. Reliquary needs to change based on game speed and be a bit more powerful, perhaps base 75. Missionary Zeal should be 33% to make it comparable to Holy Order.

Pantheon has a couple weak ones and standouts. There's enough that not a ton needs to be done, maybe a few number tweaks. Followers are probably the least balanced. The buildings are pretty good but have a tradeoff in that you have to earn them. The ones requiring t2 buildings (Choral Music, Liturgical Drama [especially], and Peace Gardens) are weak. Choral Music should give a special benefit of Great Musician points, Peace Gardens should get a culture bonus, and Liturgical Drama should give another 2 faith from Opera Houses. Asceticism could probably use an additional +1 culture or other minor benefit, Feed the World should get +2 food from Temples, and Swords into Plowshares should be remade, since not having control over whether or not you get the benefits is Bad Design.

 

[kaspergm]

Gold is a very flexible resource. You can convert it into almost anything that you need buy purchasing buildings or units. If you don't need it at the moment, you can always put it in the bank and save it for later. It is easier to convert gold into happiness than it is to convert happiness into gold, although golden ages will give you a payback in terms of gold and culture. There is little doubt that Ceremonial Burial and Tithe are the uncontested top founder beliefs, and I'm not arguing against CB being the best founder, depending on your play style. But CB also has some weaknesses, for instance you will lose out on the bonus as soon as your religion is not majority religion in enemy cities, and AI will convert their cities back. Tithe obviously gives you a better payback when you are majority (because you have more followers), but all those 1-2-3 followers spread out also add up, even when you are not majority.

Tithe is in my oppinion universally better than Church Property - there might be a short while earlier in game where CP gives you a better payback, but in all games I've seen, Tithe gave me more money than CB would very soon. Initiation Rights is actually a worthy alternative to Tithe, because it will give you a very rapid influx of gold - you may earn less gold throughout the game total, but you get a lot of gold very fast early, and gold is more scarce early in general (plus IR has the benefit of you not having to care about AI converting back their cities, as the bonus is linked to first time you become majority).

As for the other founders, Pilgrimage has become slightly less rubbish, but most people prefer to earn their faith from pantheon; Papal Primacy is generally considered irrelevant; Peace Loving and World Church are hard to depend upon because they don't count your own cities; and Interfaith Dialogue is ... tricky ...

So on the bottom line, Tithe has the advantage of being both powerful, universal and simple. It's the belief that will net you the most gold in the long run, which may itself not be a problem (one of the gold beliefs has to hold that title). It seems to be universally better than Church Property, which is a problem, unless you want that to be the benefit of early founding. It might not be better than Ceremonial Burial, but it is more flexible and can go a long way in giving you the same benefit as CB.

 

[headcase]

Having one enhancer belief that enhances spread through trade routes, and then printing press as another belief that enhances the natural non-trade spread, would be good for the Enhancer category. It would mean one more civ can take an Enhancer that allows religion spread in some way, while keeping the choices different enough from each other.