to Pyramids, or not to Pyramids?

[rewster1]

I've read a lot of things on this board regarding the worthwhileness (is that a word?) of wonders in general, and opinions are of course mixed. Obviously, my question is specifically about the pyramids. This just seems to be the wonder with the biggest possible impact on your game. I like playing philosophical leaders and getting early great people... but if I don't get the pyramids my two scientists (plus two more if I get the GL) and any great scientists I settle after building an academy are only producing 3 and 6 beakers respectively, instead of 6 and 9 with representation. On the other hand, the pyramids are really expensive and there aren't any philo/ind leaders, so the only discount you can get is with stone, which seems to get rarer as you go up in difficulty.
So my question is, are the pyramids worth the hammers, or should I just focus on "horizontal expansion" instead and get representation the hard way?

Oh, and a followup question (even though I have yet to post). Are there any good shortcuts to getting constitution? I'm thinking of trying a CS slingshot in my next game (it would be my first real slingshot attempt). Is that a good way to go in this situation?

 

[Zombie69]

The word your looking for is "worth", as in "the worth of wonders in general".

The answer is that Pyramids are worth it if you can get them. As you go up in difficulty levels that becomes a big if, and trying but failing will set you back so much you'll have a hard time catching up.

 

[Kenji]

Philosopical : Yes, Pyramid whenever u have a shot, shoot it
Representation is worth the shot. and the Pyramid give u Great Engineer (if u have Stonehenge/Oracle maybe give u a Prophet)

my strat (if stone) : BW > Masonary > Wheel > Farming > Mysctism-Priesthood (if stone) > Writing

Build Pyramid at highest food generating city (no need much production, since u mostly just chop).

when Pyramid half done or 1500BC, start Stonehenge at 2nd city. chop 1 tree if have 3+. then build Oracle. by the time u should have Writing or soon, or Pyramid done. (Slavery + Representation)

get Oracle from chopping (no marble > req. chops) > get Metal Casting.

Whip Rush Forge at Pyramid city and use an Engineer.

2nd City must spawn a Prophet (1st or 2nd) and Pyramid City must spawn Engineer .

use the Prophet for Super Specialist at Pyramid City (i dont like early religion) , use the Enginner for Great Library...

after First Engineer and Prophet spawn, get Library ... and max out the Scientists at GPFarm... if lots of population in GPfarm, get Caste System from code of law...

then u are done... fastest can get 4 GP spawn before 1 AD (+1 if u beeline to Music)

since this will be low commerce... u can get your Culture Rate higher and your happiness cap ++

 

[Elrohir]

I don't usually go for Pyramids. But if I have stone, and I'm at that point where I can't expand much more without crippling my research and I need something to build - why not? At worst you get a bunch of cash, at best you get a good wonder and a nice civic.

Don't go for it unless you have a couple cities though; you can't tie up your only source of production on building one wonder.

 

[duezeone]

Philosopical : Yes, Pyramid whenever u have a shot, shoot it
Representation is worth the shot. and the Pyramid give u Great Engineer (if u have Stonehenge/Oracle maybe give u a Prophet)

my strat (if stone) : BW > Masonary > Wheel > Farming > Mysctism-Priesthood (if stone) > Writing

Build Pyramid at highest food generating city (no need much production, since u mostly just chop).

when Pyramid half done or 1500BC, start Stonehenge at 2nd city. chop 1 tree if have 3+. then build Oracle. by the time u should have Writing or soon, or Pyramid done. (Slavery + Representation)

get Oracle from chopping (no marble > req. chops) > get Metal Casting.

Whip Rush Forge at Pyramid city and use an Engineer.

2nd City must spawn a Prophet (1st or 2nd) and Pyramid City must spawn Engineer .

use the Prophet for Super Specialist at Pyramid City (i dont like early religion) , use the Enginner for Great Library...

after First Engineer and Prophet spawn, get Library ... and max out the Scientists at GPFarm... if lots of population in GPfarm, get Caste System from code of law...

then u are done... fastest can get 4 GP spawn before 1 AD (+1 if u beeline to Music)

since this will be low commerce... u can get your Culture Rate higher and your happiness cap ++

Sounds like a decent strat, but why base your whole strategy around great people? What type of victory do you aim for? Cultural? What difficulty level do you use this strategy on?

 

[Archbob]

I usuaully prefer Parthenon over Pyramids, especially if I'm philosophical. If you get that, you can pump out GP early on like crazy.

 

[Lanstro]

The pyramids are great, but i only build it when i have stone, or when i'm industrious with a productive city. otherwise, the hammers are much better used on military

 

[rewster1]

I think I can take away from this, so far, that the pyramids are nice to have but not a must have. This is good to realize for myself, I think, so I can work around it in situations where I do not have stone, or not a lot of trees.
Perhaps I can look more into the parthenon... one more great person (or two) may make up for the lower science output until I get my preferred govt civic on my own. Another thing I could do is beeline for literature to get the great library earlier. 8 free great scientist points, AND 6 free beakers per turn might be worth even more than a 50% increase overall in GPP.
I don't want to let myself rely on any of these wonders of course, as I doubt that will scale as I move up in difficulty.

Of course, I could just cottage spam it... but I feel like it's such a... boring way to play.

 

[ellie]

In last game as not pushed for space (on island) i chopped them, the engineer went into into the parthenon..as lizzie that should be nice GPP .

Playing england, got pyra, parth, stonehenge , oracle all very early and shouldbe insteresting to see what happens (just gotta chop some axemen and settlers fast!).

On a std map however, i think 1 or max of 2 very ancient wonders is all that is viable. I think pyramids are very expensive and a no-no without stone.

And when u think of the hammers that went into them, its prolly a lot of swordsmen.

 

[Kenji]

Sounds like a decent strat, but why base your whole strategy around great people? What type of victory do you aim for? Cultural? What difficulty level do you use this strategy on?

using Great Person as Great Specialist (1 acadamy) , on Emperor (still work on immortal but way harder for +stonehenge/oracle that require more techs to unlock)

using Peter. getting Cossack at ~1300AD with 2-4 cities. fight against LBman/Grendier is fine =)

type of victory is domination after cossack , 2nd choice is diplomatic (since u got tech faster than other civs... u can gain some +s easily )

 

[Zombie69]

Nevermind, answered above.

 

[budweiser]

I was messing with egypt this weekend trying to build the pyramids. I was experimenting with slavery to rush finish it, but at best I think slave rushing only saves a turn or two. I was going for pottery and a grainary to build up pop to rush. I got them 3 out of 4 times on a standard monarch pangea. Each time I got it around 900BC. My goal was 2 cities, a religion and the pyramids, but the religion was too much for me. I have a decent save I could post of my latest attempt. It had 2 cities, stone and horses connected and is saved on the turn the pyramids are finished.

 

[exitpoll]

I only go for pyramids with stone nearby and forests to chop. Otherwise the chances are huge the AI will complete it before you. I play on emperor.

As mentioned above, you need 1 or preferably 2 other cities in place before going for pyramids. On emperor and above the AI expands like mad and will quickly box you in if you don't claim land early on.

Representation is nice for the +3 beakers, but the real deal is the +3 happiness! This is huge, especially on higher difficulties.

The great engineer is IMO best used for great library.
But I've added it as a super specialist with great success in a few games (+3 hammers, +6 beakers means a lot early game).

 

[Gyspsysmoke]

I never get the chance to build the pyramids but I usually end up with them, you get that nice little report that tells you who built them and they become an early target of mine, raze the rest of their cities, take the pyramids, turn on Police State and the war machine is in effect

 

[Leifmk]

On a std map however, i think 1 or max of 2 very ancient wonders is all that is viable. I think pyramids are very expensive and a no-no without stone.

In my current game I've got five cities by 1000 BC, pulled off a successful CS Slingshot by getting the Oracle, and have Stonehenge *and* the Pyramids (and the holy city for Hinduism as well, no shrine yet though). Monarch level, standard-sized map. This is my first Inca game; a Quechua rush can really make your day. Because I didn't build any of those cities myself; they're the former capitals of Spain, India and Japan plus one Japanese colony.

Generally speaking, though, if you want the Pyramids on Monarch or above you should have both stone and a lot of trees to chop. It seems to be a fairly high priority for the AI civs to build.

 

[Zombie69]

I was messing with egypt this weekend trying to build the pyramids. I was experimenting with slavery to rush finish it

Were you purposely trying to role-play this or was this just a coincidence?

 

[budweiser]

Were you purposely trying to role-play this or was this just a coincidence?

Role-play. This is how I play most of my games. I only build what I think the original civ built in history. That's why I only build stonehenge with england, rarely go for the pyramids, and quit games as america if someone beats me to statue of liberty. The Hermitage only goes in St Petersburg. Heroic Epic? That belongs to the Greeks. National Epic? Look at the picture, it's the Arch De Triumph. It makes things a bit harder and I rarely finish a game, but its the way I like to do it and I am up to monarch now.

I'll tell you France makes out bigtime in Civ IV over Civ III, as does America. England seems to get shorted, but they still have some National wonders.

There is some debate, I believe, as to whether or not slaves were used to actually build the pyramids, or how many or how important they were. My expirements seem to support the theory that their contribution was minimal.

 

[Zombie69]

quit games as america if someone beats me to statue of liberty.

What if the French make it first? That would be ok right? In real life, they're the ones who made it in the first place.

 

[AngryPants]

IF you start with Stone, i think the Pyramids are a must. In addition to getting cool civics early in the game, you can pop a Great Engineer relatively early in the game. Thats a free wonder right there.

 

[budweiser]

What if the French make it first? That would be ok right? In real life, they're the ones who made it in the first place.

No, not OK because they didn't use it. It was a gift to America, the game cant represent that. The Statue represents the effects of immigrants coming to america, hence the free specialist in all cities.