Tradition opener really is amazing

[aafritz17]

(Sorry for the delayed response; this week I've spent more time with grandkids than at my computer. )

@aafritz17, please double check your calculations.

That is not correct. Hitting a culture ruin, no matter the turn, does not change the mathematics that the Tradition opener only slows down the the second and third Liberty pick.
I think if one does not build a monument until after the 2nd Liberty pick, then the Tradition opener might get you there sooner; but, of course, that is terrible play.
If you like, I can run the exact numbers for my preferred scout-scout-shrine-monument BO.

Agreed, for any given set of inputs, you can beeline CR quicker than taking the scenic route through the Trad opener.

I've been trying to make the case that with an early ruin (I said T6, but maybe up to T10) one gets some benefits and flexibility that (may) offset the penalty. With a T6 ruin you can beeline CR by T37 (given 6hpt and your preferred BO of Sc, Sc, Sh, Mon). The same scenario, but opening Trad 1st, gets you to CR on T40, a 3-turn penalty.

But I've also been saying that in return for the 3 turn penalty you do get some benefits and/or flexibility as a trade-off:

You can delay the monument (like for an archer, another scout, or a replacement scout if barbs killed one)
Better border expansion (you can settle on a hill/river tile, even if that puts the lux in the 2nd ring).
Higher cpt for, well, forever. (Or, if one was going to take the Trad opener sometime anyway, until that pick is made.)​

However, while I still think those benefits could at times be worth something, in this discussion they do not make the grade. This discussion (at least my part) is about taking the Trad opener either first or fourth. Either way, it's all done in 40+/- turns. And in those early turns, those benefits ain't worth nearly as much.

Using whatever delayed the monument is gonna be the same either way (I was totally wrong to include this).
In those first 40-whatever turns I don't need that lux-tile yet.
And as for the higher cpt, well, I'm going to take the Trad opener at some point anyway, so it's only higher until then.
​

Hey, thanks, @beetle! I think you just helped me help my own game!

 

[NebulousJaguar]

When I play with an expansionistic mindset, I always open tradition first then fill out liberty. The culture per turn and faster border growth help me out in the long run and my plans for which policies to fill out are usually so strict that picking tradition at the beginning does not set me back, in the long run. Opening with tradition does mean a delay to the instant settler and completing liberty, but I am usually so busy trying to remove the raging barbarians that I miss out on an early-as-possible-settler anyway.

 

[beetle]

I always open tradition first then fill out liberty.

Would you be willing to try an experiment? Try taking the Tradition opener fourth for several games in a row, but otherwise playing your Liberty game as usual. I predict that (1) the slower early border growth is hardly noticeably, but (2) the effects of the earlier worker and settler are appreciable. Please try it and report back (either way) to this thread!

 

[NebulousJaguar]

Would you be willing to try an experiment?

It is my favorite play style, being expansive and trying to put down as many cities as I possibly can to see how far i can go into the list of city names while maintaining happiness, military, and economy. It has been a while since I played a game with this approach...
I think I shall have to try this experiment with my very next game. Not sure when exactly I'll get to it but I will share how it goes.

 

[NebulousJaguar]

Would you be willing to try an experiment? Try taking the Tradition opener fourth for several games in a row, but otherwise playing your Liberty game as usual. I predict that (1) the slower early border growth is hardly noticeably, but (2) the effects of the earlier worker and settler are appreciable. Please try it and report back (either way) to this thread!

So I tried this various times by now and it certainly is more efficient when I play an expansive game. The slower early border growth was barely noticeable and the as-early-as-possible settler (I don't remember exactly which turn, but by completing monument after 1 scout, and taking tradition opener as my 4th policy, it was usually around turn 41) was helpful.

 

[beetle]

Thanks @NebulousJaguar for reporting back.

 

[Athenaeum]

I'm glad you had one game where you were able to benefit from that, but it's obviously not optimal in all situations. The border growth can be really nice though. Ideally you should have enough gold to buy out to luxuries if you really need it.

I'm not really huge into Liberty/Tradition mixes when going past Liberty:2 because the main benefits of Tradition are towards the end (Monarchy and Landed Elite) and it will probably take too long to reach those if you go 3 into Liberty before Tradition (in response to one of the first posts).