AbsintheRed
Deity
Planning both those things, but that line in the changelog is unrelated.
Wording might be misleading, it's the historic timeline, or rather guideline for UHVs, spawns, and other important dates.
Turn/timeline changes
- Thread starter AbsintheRed
- Start date
Wording might be misleading, it's the historic timeline, or rather guideline for UHVs, spawns, and other important dates.
Just want to chime in major support for increasing number of turns early game - this is what kept me from getting into this mod for years. The way that you, AbsintheRed, feel about geographic resolution in RFC, I feel about temporal resolution, and judging from this thread I'm not the only one. I wouldn't play RFC either until marathon came out. Really glad this is under consideration.
Also, perhaps you might consider just removing playable Arabs? You could just code in historical expansion for a non-playable Arab civ, and have that fracture into playable Aghlabids/Hafsids (UHV1 conquer Sicily and Malta) and Fatimids/Mamluks. There just seems to be no way to get even close to historical playability with the Arabs, and that seems like it should be a requisite for a history mod, besides that the initial Arab expansion is one of the most historically consequential events of the game (e.g. the Cordoban civilization shouldn't even be in the game if the Arabs haven't conquered the Maghreb, let alone Egypt)
Also, perhaps you might consider just removing playable Arabs? You could just code in historical expansion for a non-playable Arab civ, and have that fracture into playable Aghlabids/Hafsids (UHV1 conquer Sicily and Malta) and Fatimids/Mamluks. There just seems to be no way to get even close to historical playability with the Arabs, and that seems like it should be a requisite for a history mod, besides that the initial Arab expansion is one of the most historically consequential events of the game (e.g. the Cordoban civilization shouldn't even be in the game if the Arabs haven't conquered the Maghreb, let alone Egypt)
Sorry, not sure if that makes sense or if I'm remotely using those words correctly. Basically I like a higher turn/year ratio the way you prefer a higher tile/km2 ratio (though I actually prefer that too)
AbsintheRed
Deity
Thanks, I figured you meant that!
I'm really curious, what would be the ideal years/turn ratio during the timeline for you?
gilgames
Priest-King
So how do we stand on this topic now?
Baron03
Baron
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 314
Another long post!
I really like Absinthe's idea for changing the timeline of the mod. It might've been spur of the moment, but I like the suggested changes to the timeline. Basically all the time turn-clicking in the 18th century will be potentially moved to actual gameplay in the Middle Ages. I looked into this as soon as it was posted a few years ago and made some excel sheets to work through how these changes would work. These are my opinions, and I hope they can help in some way.
Old/Current timeline:
4 years per turn 500-900 (100 turns)
3 years per turn 900-1500 (200 turns)
2 years per turn 1500-1700 (100 turns)
1 year per turn 1700-1800 (100 turns)
Proposed Absinthe timeline:
3 years per turn 500-1100 (200 turns)
2 years per turn 1100-1700 (300 turns)
0 years per turn 1700-1800 (0 turns) - delete and end mod at 1700. I also like removing the last 100 turns to keep the mod at 500 total turns.
There is a "dead zone" not directly affected by the turn change. That would be the 10th and 11th centuries (900 AD to 1100AD) , because these two centuries were already under 3 years per turn. The perfect example to illustrate this: suppose Absinthe really wanted to add the duchy of Croatia to RFCE! Their historical timeline is 925-1102. That would be 59 turns under the old turn system, but under the new turn system it would still be 59 turns because the turn system doesn't change this time period.
This will obviously not affect all civs equally! Conquest goals will generally become easier because you have more turns to accomplish them. However, there could be longer revolt upon conquest within cities because the extra turns translate to longer culture buildup within a city.
I calculated all turn accomplished UHVs and here are some examples: I hope I did the math right...
This will also require adjustments for the entire game. Technologies, build values, civics, civs, culture, players, etc. To change one thing, you'll have to change them all. I specifically want to look at technologies!
Current technologies:
There are 18 "Ancient" techs.
There are 18 true "classical" techs (there are also the two Arabic techs classified as classical).
There are 15 "medieval" techs.
There are 22 "renaissance" techs.
The ancient, classical, medieval, and renaissance names are leftovers from vanilla civ. the way I see it: ancient roughly covers the early Middle Ages (500-1000) ; classical roughly covers the high Middle Ages (1000-1250) ; medieval roughly covers the late Middle Ages (1250-1500) ; and renaissance roughly covers the renaissance period, the remainder of the game.
Using the extra 33% metric for 500-900 and 1100-1500 that would mean the ancient, classical, and medieval 'eras' would receive up to 33% extra techs. This would mean up to 17 new techs all else being equal (which is not as easy as it sounds, especially with the 200 year gap). 6 new for ancient, 6 new for classical, and 5 new for medieval. Several renaissance techs would likely be cut as well. Many of the ideas below came from reading a book about medieval machines by Jean Gimpel, as well as a book by Carlo Cipolla.
The most difficult part to me would be where to exactly place these techs on the RFCE tech tree. I'm not entirely sure how that should be done, but the most I can come up with are the requirements.
New technology idea list for the ancient category or Early Middle Ages:
New technology idea list for the classical and medieval categories or high Middle Ages and late Middle Ages: I combined both since I think these ideas are more fluid than the previous section.
Here are the leftover tech ideas:
Quarantining
Tread wheel crane
Stone masonry
Spinning wheel
Patent Law
Horizontal Loom
Mechanics
Water power* (taken by Waterwheel)
Buildings: For this I only want to suggest simpler additions/adjustments, because I will likely underestimate prolonged/accumulated effects of new buildings in the early game.
Units: I have shamelessly plugged units in posts before, so to keep this concise I believe there will be more room for more generic units: Halberider, Man-at-Arms, etc.
New Civilizations: I have also plugged plenty of extra civs throughout the years, and that can be saved for late. However, I do believe that the changed timeline gives room for several new civs. I calculated more than a dozen potential new civs based on their timelines, and a few already have enough significance to be added.
What about loading time? I'm actually not very concerned about this considering how fast modern PCs are nowadays. I bought a simple desktop almost two years ago and it loads through late civs easily.
So these are my opinions of the simpler side offers of changing the mod's timeline, with emphasis on techs. I had fun looking through a lot of possibilities.
I really like Absinthe's idea for changing the timeline of the mod. It might've been spur of the moment, but I like the suggested changes to the timeline. Basically all the time turn-clicking in the 18th century will be potentially moved to actual gameplay in the Middle Ages. I looked into this as soon as it was posted a few years ago and made some excel sheets to work through how these changes would work. These are my opinions, and I hope they can help in some way.
Old/Current timeline:
4 years per turn 500-900 (100 turns)
3 years per turn 900-1500 (200 turns)
2 years per turn 1500-1700 (100 turns)
1 year per turn 1700-1800 (100 turns)
Proposed Absinthe timeline:
3 years per turn 500-1100 (200 turns)
2 years per turn 1100-1700 (300 turns)
0 years per turn 1700-1800 (0 turns) - delete and end mod at 1700. I also like removing the last 100 turns to keep the mod at 500 total turns.
There is a "dead zone" not directly affected by the turn change. That would be the 10th and 11th centuries (900 AD to 1100AD) , because these two centuries were already under 3 years per turn. The perfect example to illustrate this: suppose Absinthe really wanted to add the duchy of Croatia to RFCE! Their historical timeline is 925-1102. That would be 59 turns under the old turn system, but under the new turn system it would still be 59 turns because the turn system doesn't change this time period.
This will obviously not affect all civs equally! Conquest goals will generally become easier because you have more turns to accomplish them. However, there could be longer revolt upon conquest within cities because the extra turns translate to longer culture buildup within a city.
I calculated all turn accomplished UHVs and here are some examples: I hope I did the math right...
Spoiler :
This will also require adjustments for the entire game. Technologies, build values, civics, civs, culture, players, etc. To change one thing, you'll have to change them all. I specifically want to look at technologies!
Current technologies:
There are 18 "Ancient" techs.
There are 18 true "classical" techs (there are also the two Arabic techs classified as classical).
There are 15 "medieval" techs.
There are 22 "renaissance" techs.
The ancient, classical, medieval, and renaissance names are leftovers from vanilla civ. the way I see it: ancient roughly covers the early Middle Ages (500-1000) ; classical roughly covers the high Middle Ages (1000-1250) ; medieval roughly covers the late Middle Ages (1250-1500) ; and renaissance roughly covers the renaissance period, the remainder of the game.
Using the extra 33% metric for 500-900 and 1100-1500 that would mean the ancient, classical, and medieval 'eras' would receive up to 33% extra techs. This would mean up to 17 new techs all else being equal (which is not as easy as it sounds, especially with the 200 year gap). 6 new for ancient, 6 new for classical, and 5 new for medieval. Several renaissance techs would likely be cut as well. Many of the ideas below came from reading a book about medieval machines by Jean Gimpel, as well as a book by Carlo Cipolla.
The most difficult part to me would be where to exactly place these techs on the RFCE tech tree. I'm not entirely sure how that should be done, but the most I can come up with are the requirements.
New technology idea list for the ancient category or Early Middle Ages:
Spoiler :
New technology idea list for the classical and medieval categories or high Middle Ages and late Middle Ages: I combined both since I think these ideas are more fluid than the previous section.
Spoiler :
Here are the leftover tech ideas:
Quarantining
Tread wheel crane
Stone masonry
Spinning wheel
Patent Law
Horizontal Loom
Mechanics
Water power* (taken by Waterwheel)
Buildings: For this I only want to suggest simpler additions/adjustments, because I will likely underestimate prolonged/accumulated effects of new buildings in the early game.
Spoiler :
Units: I have shamelessly plugged units in posts before, so to keep this concise I believe there will be more room for more generic units: Halberider, Man-at-Arms, etc.
New Civilizations: I have also plugged plenty of extra civs throughout the years, and that can be saved for late. However, I do believe that the changed timeline gives room for several new civs. I calculated more than a dozen potential new civs based on their timelines, and a few already have enough significance to be added.
What about loading time? I'm actually not very concerned about this considering how fast modern PCs are nowadays. I bought a simple desktop almost two years ago and it loads through late civs easily.
So these are my opinions of the simpler side offers of changing the mod's timeline, with emphasis on techs. I had fun looking through a lot of possibilities.
Baron03
Baron
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 314
I still prefer ending the mod at 1700 but even I have to admit that there will be a few downsides/changes associated with ending the game at 1700 instead of 1800. However, there is still far more good changing the timeline than bad in my opinion.
The main territorial developments that would be taken away will be the Partitions of Poland (which are hard to perfectly enact anyway), expansion of Austria, expansion of Prussia into Germany, Russian expansion to the Black Sea and Baltics, and the conquest of Venice.
The Dutch will suffer the most with the timeline change. They spawn in 1581, which is outside the increased turn changes of the Middle Ages. In essence, they will lose 100 turns of gameplay, [159.5 - 100 = 59.5] , 50 of which for their first UHV.
The following five UHVs are directly impacted from the turn change:
The most obvious changes would be to change the UHVs. Either reduce the goal, or change it entirely. For example;
The Dutch, maybe having four great merchants instead of five would work?
The Lithuanians, maybe change to have a higher score than Novgorod, Moscow, and Prussia?
Conclusion:
If the timeline is changed but the UHVs are desirable, then I think the compromise of ending the game at 1750 (keeping the 2 years per turn) would be a good alternative. That would only be an extra 25 turns added to the mod overall, which would make the Dutch gameplay about [59.5 + 25] 84.5 turns. This would also save the Swedish, Dutch, and most of the Prussia goal. Austria and Lithuania's could be shortened. Either way ending the mod at 1700 or 1750 is fine with me
The main territorial developments that would be taken away will be the Partitions of Poland (which are hard to perfectly enact anyway), expansion of Austria, expansion of Prussia into Germany, Russian expansion to the Black Sea and Baltics, and the conquest of Venice.
The Dutch will suffer the most with the timeline change. They spawn in 1581, which is outside the increased turn changes of the Middle Ages. In essence, they will lose 100 turns of gameplay, [159.5 - 100 = 59.5] , 50 of which for their first UHV.
The following five UHVs are directly impacted from the turn change:
Spoiler :
The most obvious changes would be to change the UHVs. Either reduce the goal, or change it entirely. For example;
The Dutch, maybe having four great merchants instead of five would work?
The Lithuanians, maybe change to have a higher score than Novgorod, Moscow, and Prussia?
Conclusion:
If the timeline is changed but the UHVs are desirable, then I think the compromise of ending the game at 1750 (keeping the 2 years per turn) would be a good alternative. That would only be an extra 25 turns added to the mod overall, which would make the Dutch gameplay about [59.5 + 25] 84.5 turns. This would also save the Swedish, Dutch, and most of the Prussia goal. Austria and Lithuania's could be shortened. Either way ending the mod at 1700 or 1750 is fine with me
DC123456789
Deity
I don't think the Lithuanians, Austrians, or Swedish would have much of a problem accomplishing their UHVs by 1700 instead of whatever it is right now. All of them do get some turns early on anyways IIRC.
Otherwise they can be adjusted slightly. In any case axing the 1700-1800 period would allow many more options for the actual Medieval period.
Baron03
Baron
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 314
Thank you for pointing that out! I never made it to the late games anyway, so I wouldn’t have known. I guess the only downside would be for the Dutch then. Worst case for them would be relegation to a minor/unplayable civ, but 59-60 turns is a decent timeframe.
gilgames
Priest-King
Honestly scrapping the Dutch civ sounds good. I only played them once. Won. That's it. Not very interesting not very challenging. True they are kinda fun and peaceful. But that late start is bad.
Prussia need the whole time frame for they uhv, the others don't. But if you skip spain and France, it's fine, or do it from 1620 to 1700.
But above all else, I would love to hear about Absinte!!! On his opinions and progress in modding and so on.
Prussia need the whole time frame for they uhv, the others don't. But if you skip spain and France, it's fine, or do it from 1620 to 1700.
But above all else, I would love to hear about Absinte!!! On his opinions and progress in modding and so on.
Is there a cap on the number of civs? Dutch aren't the most inspiring, but if their UHVs can just be adjusted to finish earlier then no need to remove them unless they are taking the place of another potential. Especially if it'll be extra work to remove them, time which could be better spent on adding new features.
Baron03
Baron
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 314
The hard limit for a "standard" dll like RFCE is 65 playable civs I think, because I tried adding as many as I could for something else years ago and ran into that problem when adding 66. However, adding civs is up to Absinthe.
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Plus removing civs is really easy. Don't even need to fully remove them, can just switch them off from popping up in python. I would remove them just for the speed of the game.
Serbia, Anatolian Seljuks, Ifriqiya (Tunisia - Hafsids), Egypt & Milan are civs I would add. I'd also break up France, into Carolignian (Frankish) France, and later Capetian/Valois France.
If Early Middle Ages are actually implemented properly, there are so many civs that can be added!
Serbia, Anatolian Seljuks, Ifriqiya (Tunisia - Hafsids), Egypt & Milan are civs I would add. I'd also break up France, into Carolignian (Frankish) France, and later Capetian/Valois France.
If Early Middle Ages are actually implemented properly, there are so many civs that can be added!
AbsintheRed
Deity
Yeah, I have been kinda neglecting the forums. Well, not the forums, but posting/replying.
Nevertheless modding continues in the background.
Will try to find time to make more posts here as well.
AbsintheRed
Deity
About the topic at hand:
I never meant to remove the last hundred years.
There is way too much stuff there - mostly techs, colonies, units, but also some civ-specific stuff - most of which should stay.
If for nothing else, than for flavor.
I do not plan to remove the Dutch either.
What would be the point of their removal?
You can just play with different civs, if you do not like them.
On the other hand, I do want to reduce the turn number for this part of the timeline.
It will help on the tediousness of some of the UHVs mentioned above.
And we can also adjust those too to earlier dates/UHVs, I'm not committed to any of them.
Also, a new timeline is definitely coming to the mod.
The main plan did not change much:
3 years per turn from 500 to 1100
2 years per turn from 1100 to 1800
For a total of 550 turns
But since the endgame is reduced with 50 turns, sometimes I'm playing around with the idea of this timeline:
3 years per turn from 500 to 800
2 years per turn from 800 to 1800
For a total of 600 turns
EDIT:
Another version I was toying around:
3 years per turn from 500 to 950
2 years per turn from 950 to 1750
150 + 400 turns
Would have to force most of the stuff from the last 100 turns into 25 though.
Unless the last 50 years till 1800 are also included, at 1 year per turn, for a total of 600 turns
I never meant to remove the last hundred years.
There is way too much stuff there - mostly techs, colonies, units, but also some civ-specific stuff - most of which should stay.
If for nothing else, than for flavor.
I do not plan to remove the Dutch either.
What would be the point of their removal?
You can just play with different civs, if you do not like them.
On the other hand, I do want to reduce the turn number for this part of the timeline.
It will help on the tediousness of some of the UHVs mentioned above.
And we can also adjust those too to earlier dates/UHVs, I'm not committed to any of them.
Also, a new timeline is definitely coming to the mod.
The main plan did not change much:
3 years per turn from 500 to 1100
2 years per turn from 1100 to 1800
For a total of 550 turns
But since the endgame is reduced with 50 turns, sometimes I'm playing around with the idea of this timeline:
3 years per turn from 500 to 800
2 years per turn from 800 to 1800
For a total of 600 turns
EDIT:
Another version I was toying around:
3 years per turn from 500 to 950
2 years per turn from 950 to 1750
150 + 400 turns
Would have to force most of the stuff from the last 100 turns into 25 though.
Unless the last 50 years till 1800 are also included, at 1 year per turn, for a total of 600 turns
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AbsintheRed
Deity
Thanks for all the detailed feedback (in this post, and all the other ones)!
You have clearly put a lot of time and thought in them.
I do like many of the tech suggestions in this post.
As it came up before, lots of new content will be needed.
Also, the new timeline itself is not a big change. Just a couple small changes in the dll, and (lots of) very straightforward modifications in python and XML.
But it affects almost everything in the mod:
New techs, units, buildings, etc. added, while modifying the current ones.
Lots of updates for all civs, especially for UPs and UHVs.
Changes in some RFCE-specific mechanics.
And lots of rebalancing. Well, probably everything.
Baron03
Baron
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Messages
- 314
Feeling useful
Although when you list out everything that will have to rebalanced, it literally means everything.
