Unbalance: Doviello & Baron Duin Halfmorn

[Hullu]

So, my last game I wanted to try out Doviello. After a few failed starts I managed to get the game going pretty nicely. Until.

My Lucian Cold Iron turned into a werewolf. All good and fine. Ten turns later I had two greater werewolves and half a dozen blooded ones.

Ten turns later I had destroyed two civilizations, third was about to fall, I had a load of promoted-to-hell-and-back greater and blooded werewolves, my economy was crap due to excessive amount of units, and nothing whatsoever could even slow me down.

... the chance for Baron Duin Halfmorn to generate a werewolf from a successful combat shouldn't exist, at least not until certain techs are in game. Even at a very low % (it must be low since I only saw it happens once in a few games, still, it happened very early, axemen at worst to oppose me) it completely breaks the game.

Oh, and a related bug(?). My Lucian Cold Iron turned into a greater werewolf somewhere along the way. Then, some time later he turned back to a blooded one, don't know why.

 

[Pazyryk]

I notice you say "after a few failed starts." It's fun to go all-out aggressive with the Baron, but success is not a consistent outcome (not without a lot of re-loading, anyway). It's a hoot when things go well, but I tend to have a lot more failed attempts with Doviello than with many other civs. I think this is part of the balance consideration.

 

[graywarden]

I notice you say "after a few failed starts." It's fun to go all-out aggressive with the Baron, but success is not a consistent outcome (not without a lot of re-loading, anyway). It's a hoot when things go well, but I tend to have a lot more failed attempts with Doviello than with many other civs. I think this is part of the balance consideration.

I concur with Pazyryk, having a GREAT kick-arse game with most of the civs, and especially the Doviello is not as common as one may conclude, if they have that Great Ride after a few starts. There are so many starz that usually need to be enlightnment for that Great Ride. Enjoy it, but dont expect it every time.

 

[Hullu]

No.

My point is, when it works, it works _too_ well.

Getting a nuclear weapon in a fantasy setting is really not fun, even if the percentage is around 1. Once I got those werewolves (which I never aimed for, the failed attempts was just more like bad lair results and dying lucian on turn 1-5) the game was no longer fun since I was overpowering anything by 1:god-knows-what-so-many. It is no longer fun, the dice are too much in your favour.

Advantage because of a good die roll is ok, utterly dominating everyone since early game and just waiting until you hit one of the victory conditions is not fun. There was no opposition whatsoever against my str 6+ units with a lot of promotions. 6+ meaning up to 13. Against axemen at most.

 

[graywarden]

No.

My point is, when it works, it works _too_ well.

Getting a nuclear weapon in a fantasy setting is really not fun, even if the percentage is around 1. Once I got those werewolves (which I never aimed for, the failed attempts was just more like bad lair results and dying lucian on turn 1-5) the game was no longer fun since I was overpowering anything by 1:god-knows-what-so-many. It is no longer fun, the dice are too much in your favour.

Advantage because of a good die roll is ok, utterly dominating everyone since early game and just waiting until you hit one of the victory conditions is not fun. There was no opposition whatsoever against my str 6+ units with a lot of promotions. 6+ meaning up to 13. Against axemen at most.

I can understand what you are saying, I have been there before, but not necessarily with FFH and WM, what difficulty setting do you play on. I test on Noble which theoretically is suppose to be the most even between player and AI.

I have also wondered about the Lucian becoming werewolf, but it sorta makes sense since now the Baron is linked with the Doviello.

 

[Valkrionn]

Personally, even though I made Baron a leader for the Doviello I don't really care for expanding werewolf flavor for them. All I did (and it's still strong enough, IMO) was give him a trait that grants Cannibalize, and then blocked anyone from building Baron while Baron is a leader. In return, the Baron gets Varulv, a unit of the same stats but ONLY buildable by him; Also has an ability which can turn Recon units on the tile into Werewolves for ~10 turns.

 

[graywarden]

Personally, even though I made Baron a leader for the Doviello I don't really care for expanding werewolf flavor for them. All I did (and it's still strong enough, IMO) was give him a trait that grants Cannibalize, and then blocked anyone from building Baron while Baron is a leader. In return, the Baron gets Varulv, a unit of the same stats but ONLY buildable by him; Also has an ability which can turn Recon units on the tile into Werewolves for ~10 turns.

Valkrionn, Thanks for the background on that, I am still new to WM and catching up on the lores and background. Being a bit behind, I wasnt sure where the branches were.... haha..... some interesting points as well.

 

[Valkrionn]

Honestly, for me it's more a flavor thing than a balance thing.

The Doviello shamans brought Charadon back to life (read Mahala's entry), so I'm willing to believe they're the ones who brought back Duin as well... He shares a similar ideology with them. He also lead them in one of the FfH scenarios.

Given all of that, I am completely fine (and have actually argued for) Baron as a Doviello leader. However, I just do not like the idea of the Doviello as Werewolves; They are feral men, but are NOT lycanthropes. Which is why the only push I made along those lines was guaranteeing Doviello access to werewolves under Baron. Still need the same tech investment for it.

 

[graywarden]

Honestly, for me it's more a flavor thing than a balance thing.

The Doviello shamans brought Charadon back to life (read Mahala's entry), so I'm willing to believe they're the ones who brought back Duin as well... He shares a similar ideology with them. He also lead them in one of the FfH scenarios.

Given all of that, I am completely fine (and have actually argued for) Baron as a Doviello leader. However, I just do not like the idea of the Doviello as Werewolves; They are feral men, but are NOT lycanthropes. Which is why the only push I made along those lines was guaranteeing Doviello access to werewolves under Baron. Still need the same tech investment for it.

What is your defining difference between "feral" and "lycanthrope" as it pertains to FFH/WM lore?

 

[Valkrionn]

What is your defining difference between "feral" and "lycanthrope" as it pertains to FFH/WM lore?

• Feral
  • Survival of the fittest, non-altruistic, wild, lives like an animal.
  • Check Charadon's pedia entry, or the Doviello entry if they have one... Charadon's conveys it very well.
• Lycanthrope
  • Is an animal. Can transition to an animal form (usually wolf, which is what the term is specific to, but for any of them really)
  • This is Baron, and all the other werewolves. Not actually part of the Doviello flavor at all, aside from having a potential tie to the Baron... Which is why I left it out of Doviello+ (The ORIGINAL DovielloPlus. )

Baron's text actually does not describe him as a werewolf. He became a werewolf when brought back, but when he lived he was simply an astonishingly evil, but effective, general. I see him as similar to Genghis Khan... Really, Baron has a much stronger tie to cannibalism, and it features heavily in his pedia. I named the promotion granted by his trait Lycanthropic, but that was simply a nod to the Baron; The effects mirror Cannibalism, but is allowed for all unitcombats.

 

[graywarden]

• Feral
  • Survival of the fittest, non-altruistic, wild, lives like an animal.
  • Check Charadon's pedia entry, or the Doviello entry if they have one... Charadon's conveys it very well.
• Lycanthrope
  • Is an animal. Can transition to an animal form (usually wolf, which is what the term is specific to, but for any of them really)
  • This is Baron, and all the other werewolves. Not actually part of the Doviello flavor at all, aside from having a potential tie to the Baron... Which is why I left it out of Doviello+ (The ORIGINAL DovielloPlus. )

Baron's text actually does not describe him as a werewolf. He became a werewolf when brought back, but when he lived he was simply an astonishingly evil, but effective, general. I see him as similar to Genghis Khan... Really, Baron has a much stronger tie to cannibalism, and it features heavily in his pedia. I named the promotion granted by his trait Lycanthropic, but that was simply a nod to the Baron; The effects mirror Cannibalism, but is allowed for all unitcombats.

Thanks for the Lore Lesson, I definately need to get caught up on it more. Also your comments make sense in light of the "historical" lore, it will be interesting to see how it influences the WM storyline as it developes.

 

[Hullu]

I can understand what you are saying, I have been there before, but not necessarily with FFH and WM, what difficulty setting do you play on. I test on Noble which theoretically is suppose to be the most even between player and AI.

I have also wondered about the Lucian becoming werewolf, but it sorta makes sense since now the Baron is linked with the Doviello.

I think I was playing on Emperor, but it doesn't really matter much, since theoretically you can hit those werewolves on around turn ten, once first enemies pop. I don't mind the feature, but it really should be tech-locked. Unlimited supply of str10+ 3move units in early/midgame is not fun

 

[Sephi]

You need a tier3 unit to trigger the werewolf mechanic, so turn 10 will be quite difficult.

I changed Lucian Coldiron to tier2 now, fits better anyway since he is unlocked with bronze working and should fix the werewolf too early issue.

 

[Valkrionn]

Hmm... That seems a bit better then, I was under the impression that it was any combat unit from the thread.

I still think it's too much emphasis on lycanthropy, but whatever. Not my mod, after all.

 

[God-Emperor]

Note: this is with v7.56 - I hope some of this is fixed in newer versions, but I found no such indications in the lists of new features or bug threads.

Playing with Thudr as my leader I recently had a weird effect from the random "turns into a werewolf" thing: the Baron unit turned into a regular blooded werewolf. Shouldn't that be impossible? I would think that any unit that already has the werewolf promotion should be immune to the random werewolfization thing.

By the way, the random turning into werewolves thing is not mentioned anywhere in the civilopedia that I could find. Even here in the forums I only found mention of it linked to using the Baron as your leader. It was happening to me occasionally (at total of maybe 5 times, one of which was to the Baron unit) with Thudr as my leader. The first time it happened was quite a surprise, and the 2nd time was an annoyance as it happened to a Ranger unit that I had wanted to use the XP from that fight to get the Subdue Beasts promotion but the Blooded Werewolf can't get that promotion (fortunately the first unit converted was a ranger that already had that promotion, plus many others including about 5 of the animal mark promotions - I had to march him quite a distance to do what I was going to do with the other one: capture Acheron the Red Dragon).

 

[Sephi]

good point, will fix the Baron turns into Werewolf issue.

The Mechanic is triggered by the Baron, if you pick him as a Leader or have him as a Hero (but only Doviello). Added this info to the concept section of the Doviello now.