Undead civ: one more crazy idea

[julko]

Nice Undead idea, but i don't like that body grabbing thing. Maybe Undead can have a promo with chance to convert unit to their cause after succesful battle. But converted unit will be changed to undead of type according to his unitclass(melee->skelies; archer->skelie archer; recon->whaiths; arcane->necromancers). Also it can be scalable through level of unitclass:warrior->skelie; axeman-> zombie; champion-> diseased corpse. Maybe even some promos could pass aswell.

Also some mechanic after seizing a city can be fun, like if Undead horde capture a city with mage guild ->chance of necromancer\lich will created. Similar things can be applied to other buildings as well.

 

[velosepappe]

Well, I for one like the original idea, as it is simple, yet very uncomforting in a roleplaying kind of way. As infernals and their deamons are the ultimate target for hate, the undead would be a projection of fear on erebus.

For example, out of fear for the undead a civilization could forge a pact with the undead faction to let a certain percentage of their military to have their 'body claimed'.

 

[Tyrs]

I love the idea of a undead civ, even a scary evil one, but I don't see why they can't build or think. It's a stereotype of fa tasty that the undead must be stupid and mindless, why not have these be smart ones? They couldn't build any units and their cities wouldn't grow from food, but they have a chance to recover the body of any unit they kill. This retrieved body could join a city or upgrade to they undead units. Maybe a UU like necromancer would be able to upgrade them with a spell. Heck, you could make a "carrying bodies" promotion and a "corpse" item. Then a necromancer could pick up the corpse and cast whatever unit you wanted to upgrade the corpse into. That'd be a really unique way to get units/population. They wouldn't even have to be barbarians .

 

[PapaMonkey]

Very cool ideas here. I would enjoy seeing this added to the game. If a necropolis's cities population slowly changed from people to an 'undead' specialist you may be able to reach a compromise. The undead specialist does not eat, does not generate anything but a single hammer and a beaker. That way the civ can continue to slowly learn and build special units/structures. Maybe they strive to keep some people living to spawn more undead. Maybe they create mage guilds and build liches. Perhaps they could have a feature opposite a shade - turn an undead specialist into a unit (akin to draft).

This is a neat idea and we can have a lot of fun spec'ing out the capabilities!

 

[it-ogo]

Maybe Undead can have a promo with chance to convert unit to their cause after succesful battle...

...If a necropolis's cities population slowly changed from people to an 'undead' specialist you may be able to reach a compromise...

They couldn't build any units and their cities wouldn't grow from food, but they have a chance to recover the body of any unit they kill.

Well... That is not what I really meant... I think all of that is far different and hardly compatible with my ideas. Still welcome to imagine.

Well, I for one like the original idea, as it is simple, yet very uncomforting in a roleplaying kind of way. As infernals and their deamons are the ultimate target for hate, the undead would be a projection of fear on erebus.

As for myself I dislike more Order-Bannor with their totalitaristic tendency then Infernals as their comics-like evil is hardly believable and terefore funny. So pleasure from roleplay is of cathegory "de gustibus..." And yes, undead are not a target for hate: they are something dispersonalized no matter of Barbatos.

For example, out of fear for the undead a civilization could forge a pact with the undead faction to let a certain percentage of their military to have their 'body claimed'.

Of cause. Keeping in mind breaking the alliance after victory. And remember that demons are invulnerable to necromancy. That is why I speak of the final match between Infernals and undead. With this our fantasy becomes really dark. But remember that confessors with their destroy undead spell are really devastating for undead. Again if evil civs are prevail they have no such an effective tool against undead perhaps will join infernals against undead. There is a one more side - more strategy to play.

By the way Basium and heaven are not natural enemies of undead. They have nothing to share: first need souls, others - bodies. And only living civs want to keep both. While Hyborem pretends to conquer Erebus and therefore potentially is an enemy of undead.

Most interesting political strategy is for undead. They really need living civs to fight Infernals or Mercurians... For any active action. Though their final objective is... quiet.

I have one more idea: for the terrain under undead control. Everything is the same as before but... in black-and white.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

But Basium was the Archangel of Arawn, the God of Natural Death. Arawn abhors the undead (as do all the gods really, but not as much as he does)

 

[it-ogo]

But Basium was the Archangel of Arawn, the God of Natural Death. Arawn abhors the undead (as do all the gods really, but not as much as he does)

I am not really good in Erebus lore but have some ideas of general fantasy classifications. There are undeads and undeads. Different technologies. There are suffering trapped souls in dead bodies (or even without bodies - ghosts) with dark mind and subdued to necromancers or free. Gods oppose it of cause. And there are bodies animated with magic without trapping souls. The last idea is not so common but i used it. In this formalism mind and memory (which are XP and most promos) can be separated from the soul and kept in body. As you know, angels and manes (which are souls) do not keep XP and promos of units so it stay with bodies and can be animated without souls. There are some theoretical contradictions, for example, these bodies should not keep divine spellcasting abilities as it goes definitely through the souls. But we can close our eyes on it.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Angels do keep xp.


In general I don't think that an undead civ fits in well in Erebus at all (except for maybe splitting the Barbarian state up into separate "minor civs" (Animals, Orcs (probably also the one which other living, non-animal units join through burning blood or enraged), and Undead/Demons) which I would support)

 

[it-ogo]

Angels do keep xp.

Really? Did not know. Never played full-size game for Mercurians. But manes do not, as I remember. Then, OK. Let us keep the first formalism. Some names should be changed.

In general I don't think that an undead civ fits in well in Erebus at all

For me though even more important to experience different gameplay.

 

[CyberChrist]

How about a civilization that starts out as a 'normal' civ and then by means of their world spells turn completely Undead at some point middle'ish in the game?

Would anything in Erebus fit such a thing?

And if so ... what/who?

 

[it-ogo]

I think no such. This event is too specific... But maybe it is good for everybody after Armageddon?

Overall necromancy-undead topic is not so nice in FFH IMO. It lacks system, mixed with many nations, demons, barbarians, two religions...

 

[CyberChrist]

I think no such. This event is too specific... But maybe it is good for everybody after Armageddon?

I don't really see this spell/transformation fitting any of the current civs at all.

The civ I invision for this would be evil, agnostic, fanatical about all things to do with necromancy and one that would oppose Hyborems entrance in the world most strongly - to the extent that they would even consider allying with Basium (an uneasy alliance at best).

It lacks system, mixed with many nations, demons, barbarians, two religions...

Huh?

 

[Rod]

I would just suggest just to have 3 Barbarian Civs that act like Barbarian Civs.

One civs for Orcs + Orthus + Archeron
One for Undead + Barbatos
One for Demons
(maybe one for Pirates - could be nice to have Pirates just running wild instead of having a full flesh Lanun Civ)

What I mean is that we dont design full flesh civs for them but keep them as Barbarians who spawn
etc.

 

[korn469]

I would just suggest just to have 3 Barbarian Civs that act like Barbarian Civs.

One civs for Orcs + Orthus + Archeron
One for Undead + Barbatos
One for Demons
(maybe one for Pirates - could be nice to have Pirates just running wild instead of having a full flesh Lanun Civ)

What I mean is that we dont design full flesh civs for them but keep them as Barbarians who spawn
etc.

I agree. Hopefully this will make it in soon.

 

[it-ogo]

Huh?

No one concentrates on necromancy specifically. Some undeads are barbarians (and sometimes guards animal lairs), some come with OO (Drown) and AV(diseased corpse) and may be upgraded to normally demon units (stygian guards, eidolons). Sheaim can build pyre zombies even being under the Order. Clan was able to build barrows.

I would just suggest just to have 3 Barbarian Civs that act like Barbarian Civs.

That was discussed in several threads. People mainly agree but noone like to do a modmod.

 

[CyberChrist]

No one concentrates on necromancy specifically. Some undeads are barbarians (and sometimes guards animal lairs), some come with OO (Drown) and AV(diseased corpse) and may be upgraded to normally demon units (stygian guards, eidolons). Sheaim can build pyre zombies even being under the Order. Clan was able to build barrows.

I think you misunderstand my original question. I wasn't asking if any of the existing civilizations in FfH would fit, but if there was a people/civilization in Erebus Lore that would fit the description and is not yet represented in FfH.

 

[it-ogo]

Have no Idea. I am not a great fan of an abstract lore. IMO knowledge should come either from direct observations or from descriptive systematics. Also my English is not enough for something more then Planescape and Morrowind.

 

[Mithrus]

I like the idea of an undead Civ. I could see it modeled similar to the Luchirp, in that the undead units wouldn't gain promos via combat. It would be a little redundant to have a "pieces of X" promo, although the idea of a "phylactery" would fit in nicely. Having multiple Civs with similar mechanics IMO is not a bad thing, although used sparingly would be the watchword.

I personally hate Barbatos popping up in the world, since usually the Civ closest to him dies VERY early. I've played games where a civ is killed on turn 1 because their settler was placed too close to him and he had his pets eat them.

 

[it-ogo]

I could see it modeled similar to the Luchirp, in that the undead units wouldn't gain promos via combat.

It has a sense but now undeads have promos from combat.

 

[eerr]

"defiled earth"-a new promotion given to barbatos and liches, passed to summoned units,
cities razed by a unit with defiled earth become barrows or hellfire rather than city ruins.



also, hell water should have a murkey, swampy appearance, and resources change to fierce monsters(kraken instead of whales?)