Unit Conversion Due to the Birthing of a Nation

[Methos]

Currently, from my understanding, when a new nation is ‘born’ any or all units immediately surrounding that area will more than likely convert to the new nation. Is this a definite, or is there a chance that some units won’t?

I want to play a game where I start as England and begin colonizing the new world. Then when America is ‘born’ I would like to switch to America and fight my own War of Independence. The problem is, if I’m understanding it right, is that all the English units in that area will end up converting to America. Is it possible so that some don’t so that England can still have a local army? I was contemplating having England settle Canada and Florida as well, so that England can maintain a presence and military in the area, but was hoping to attempt to be historically accurate if possible.

I was hoping to attempt to recreate the Revolution.

 

[Rhye]

IIRC, ALL barbarian units flip, while normal units flip only if next or inside a city that flips. If you refuse to give the city, 50% of them should start flipping every turn in the area.

 

[Gunner]

I personally think that it would be better if we put the chance of units which enter the "flip zone" down to 33% or 20%. To compensate for that new civs should just be given more units to start with. I find it extremely frusterating when I am forced to send a constant stream of units into a city I refused to give away just so that I can keep a single unit to garrison with. I do understand that we want to keep the player from abusing the system, but as it is now I find it a bit ridiculous.

For starters I would make sure that each of the new Euro civs (France, Spain, England, Germany) is given two knights to defend their territory with and, if necessary, give them a bit of an offensive punch. In addition to that they should each be given maybe one extra axeman and one or two extra swordsman. As it is now they are mainly given longbowman, meaning that if a player refuses to give up a city then the AI has almost no effective offensive firepower to take the city, just the ability to defend the ones it already has. If we really wanted to be serious about giving them offensive capability then they should also receive catapults, as it is almost impossible to wage an effective city attack without them.

 

[Blasphemous]

I still maintain that units should flip all at once, from all around the refusing civ's army, and then not flip anymore. I went into this in depth in the the BOT (Big Ol' Thread), and I can't easily find that post, so in essence:
Legionaries coming into Iberia won't suddenly realize the error of their ways and join the uprising Spaniards. What make more sense historically is that legionaries across the Roman Empire who sympathize the Spaniard cause for some reason will quickly hear of the Spaniards' uprising and join them in their righteous fight against Rome. This all happens very fast, in the space of a few years, which in game terms means one turn.
The more realistic model I propose doesn't even give (in this case) Rome an easier time, because although you won't keep losing the troops you bring in, you will have to deal with troops all across your territory who are suddenly against you.

 

[abman]

I agree with Blasph, it doesn't make sense the way it currently is done. I found it impossible to defend the city I refused to give up because of the units flipping. It was way more than 50% for me. I had two units garrisoned in paris when the french were born. I moved in 8 more units over the next 3 turns, after that I still only had 2 units (though a different two). Only the local units should flip, not the ones I bring in afterwards. I think the unit flipping when you declare war should only happen for a very few turns, and should have less odds of happening. The french started with more than enough troops to be competitive in that area. Also an ingame message that a unit has defected to X civ would be nice as I was pulling my hair out wondering where all my troops were going.

 

[Gunner]

I think the problem is that each unit in the "flip area" has a 50% chance to flip each turn. Or at least thats what it seemed like to me. So if a unit manages to survive the flip once then there's no guarantee that it won't happen again. I think that if this was somehow changed so that each unit just had a straight up 50% chance once then everything would be ok.

 

[Blasphemous]

How about the following:
On the turn of the flip, 10% of the refusing civ's units flip, no matter where they are. Of the rest, 40% are marked to flip. If they leave the tile they're in within five turns, they flip, with a little message of the type you get when you lose a battle, saying "Our Legionaire has defected to aid Spain!". The more you mobilize to fight the uprising, the more units will flip. If you don't mobilize, you're safe (but still a sitting duck.)
That's just a suggestion, I still think it should only happen on one turn, an happen all across your army.

 

[abman]

Just noticed that it said in the fixes for the latest version that messages for units flipping were added like I was asking for. Well, I don't appear to be getting them.
Is there any end to the number of turns that unit flipping will happen? I agree that it should probably only happen in the first one or two rounds. Though I'm not sure I like the idea of having units you move later having a 40% chance of flipping. It messes with other activities too much. It should either be limited to the area around the new civ or it should be all done in the first round.

 

[Rhye]

it IS limited to the area of the new civ.
And I won't turn back to a single flip in one turn, because you have already found how to exploit that (keeping a stack of units far enough from the area)
I've lowered the threshold to 40 though

 

[Blasphemous]

I won't turn back to a single flip in one turn, because you have already found how to exploit that (keeping a stack of units far enough from the area)

The solution I suggested makes exploit impossible: units flip all over your empire. It makes sense: Legion IV may be the only one stationed in Iberia, but their buddies in Legions III, XI, VI, IX, and II stationed all across the empire will hear about the Spaniards' uprising and some of them will decide to defect and join the Spaniards and their friends in the Fourth. This all happens in the space of just a few years, or in other words, in just one turn. It is utterly unexploitable. The more of an army you have, the more will defect. You will have to face enemies already right next to your big cities. Just have units in the capital immune to the flip, and let hell break loose everywhere else.

 

[DSChapin]

It might be a little strange to have Spanish units showing up in, say, Jerusalem, but it certainly would give plenty of incentive to consider allowing independence.

Potential exploit: what if you "pre-built" a Praetorian (say) in each of your cities, so that the city was 1 turn away from finishing, and then switched to something else? After your revolution, you could have 1 Praetorian per city popping up the next turn, with no chance of conversion.

 

[Blasphemous]

It might be a little strange to have Spanish units showing up in, say, Jerusalem, but it certainly would give plenty of incentive to consider allowing independence.

Potential exploit: what if you "pre-built" a Praetorian (say) in each of your cities, so that the city was 1 turn away from finishing, and then switched to something else? After your revolution, you could have 1 Praetorian per city popping up the next turn, with no chance of conversion.

Bleh. Do you exploit video games for a living or something?
Then also add, say, 35% chance for each new military unit produced in the turn following the initial flip turn, to be produced as the enemy's unit. That still somehow makes sense - some young guys enlist to join the Legions, but then during their training they are convinced to support the Spaniards and they join them as soon as their training ends.
Now you'll suggest players leaving their delayed builds for after that turn. Well, after that turn, it may be too late, as you'll have Legions all over the place fighting against you, and enemies at your border. And remember if the Roman Empire reaches historical proportions, it will be pretty hard to have spare units beyond those you need to defend your cities. If some of those turn bad, you'll be hard-pressed to fight back an invasion. If Rome is more compact, it's realistic that they will have a chance of survival in this kind of situation.

 

[Elhoim]

Well, you could exploit the current system by giving them the cities and then attacking them in a later turn, right? Or is it that if you attack them within those 40 turns the units get flipped?

 

[Rhye]

yes, but it's very unlikely to happen.
The period is about 10 turns. I don't remember exactly

 

[OzzyKP]

The solution I suggested makes exploit impossible: units flip all over your empire. It makes sense: Legion IV may be the only one stationed in Iberia, but their buddies in Legions III, XI, VI, IX, and II stationed all across the empire will hear about the Spaniards' uprising and some of them will decide to defect and join the Spaniards and their friends in the Fourth. This all happens in the space of just a few years, or in other words, in just one turn. It is utterly unexploitable. The more of an army you have, the more will defect. You will have to face enemies already right next to your big cities. Just have units in the capital immune to the flip, and let hell break loose everywhere else.

Ok, so the French appear and the Romans lose a unit in Jerusalem. What happens when the Arabs appear and they are bordered by Egyptians, Persians, & Romans. Do they get units from Rome & southern Africa, and central Asia?

 

[DSChapin]

Then also add, say, 35% chance for each new military unit produced in the turn following the initial flip turn, to be produced as the enemy's unit. That still somehow makes sense - some young guys enlist to join the Legions, but then during their training they are convinced to support the Spaniards and they join them as soon as their training ends.

If you're going for the one-time effect, here's an idea: in addition to the chance of each unit flipping, there's a (higher?) chance for each city that it will lose any accumulated unit production. ("Those recruits ran off.") Still a one-time event, but means that having troops "in queue" isn't really any better than having troops out already.
Of course, that assumes that it's possible to remove the hammers not just for your current build, but any other "stored up" builds for that city.

 

[Blasphemous]

Ok, so the French appear and the Romans lose a unit in Jerusalem. What happens when the Arabs appear and they are bordered by Egyptians, Persians, & Romans. Do they get units from Rome & southern Africa, and central Asia?

Just from whomever refuses to let cities go to them. It really does make sense. People from that area - which has been occupied by foreigners - spread out through the occupiers' lands, even entering positions in the occupiers' military (this was definately widespread in Roman times), and then when they're a hundred miles away and they hear about their friends, or brothers, or friends' brothers, or brothers' friends, starting to rise up and take what's theirs, some of them will defect.

 

[Elhoim]

Ok, so the French appear and the Romans lose a unit in Jerusalem. What happens when the Arabs appear and they are bordered by Egyptians, Persians, & Romans. Do they get units from Rome & southern Africa, and central Asia?

Nope, because the AI always give their cities, they never refuse flipping. So they will only recieve units from a human player, if he refuses.

 

[Surtur]

Nope, because the AI always give their cities, they never refuse flipping. So they will only recieve units from a human player, if he refuses.

I think it would be nice if the AI would also refuse flipping when it really feels strong enough to hold the cities or the cities are very important (holy city e.g). Because at the moment there are no independence wars at all... The AI just gives the cities and that's it.

 

[V. Soma]

Well, it is not an easy topic...
this question of balancing powers out needs heavy testing.

In my game with Rome I refused flippng of Gades - so I turned against Spain.
If I remember some 4-5 units of mine became Spanish: legions, catapults.

I called in France to ally me against Spain and waited awhile...
Spain turned her forces - her "new" units - against Paris and got weakened.
I built new units, 4-5 again, and then went on a successful conquest of the Iberian land...
...with the help of France, who tied down some force of the enemy.

I think it was not much against reality, as things would have been worse and a long bloody war without French help...

My only question is:
Is the ca. 10 turns time of "swallowing" enemy units in home area
enough for the newborn civ to prepare against a gathering army
of the enemy (possibly the human player)?