US Capitol Breached

[Azem.Ocram]

I'm relieved that the MAGA coup wasn't gunned down en-masse. Even putting aside what @Traitorfish correctly predicted (ie that it would have possibly sparked Civil War), my concern is that those people, misguided as they were, have families, friends, lives outside of this one heinous act they engaged in. Plus, I don't want a freaking massacre on the steps of my nation's Capitol in the history books. The deaths due to their insurrection are tragic. The death toll could have been much higher if the police had not treated them with such restraint and respect.

I don't at all wish they'd been treated like black people, or BLM protesters during the coup. What I wish, is that law enforcement had been as prepared for them as they were for BLM. I also wish that BLM protesters, and black people in general were treated with the same care, restraint and respect that is shown to MAGA protesters.

I have doubts that a civil war caused by a Trumpist rebellion would be such a bad thing. Obviously, the Trumpists would lose. The publicity would destroy the Republican Party. The violent, gun-toting rebels will die, either in battle or to capital punishment. With the extremists eliminated and their enablers losing power, our nation can move forward and finally join the civilized world.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

It seems to me like there's really two layers to wednesday events - what the protesters on the ground where aiming to achieve (largely, to scare and possibly avenge themselves for perceived wrongs perpetrated by congress against them), and what the people who encouraged and stoked the movement wanted.

These folks certainly appeared (which may be the key word) like they were attempting to actually subvert the political institutions to allow their faction to illegitimately retain power past the end of their term of office.They may not have believed it would work, but they at the very least wanted it to appear like they were trying, either for general image reasons or because their actual plans are longer term and they believe that showing their resolve to retain power now serve those long term plan. . In that vein, *they* likely stoked the fires of wednesday's events as part of their efforts - but did not organize it themselves.

So on one level, you have an insurrection that wasn't, in itself, a coup, but was influenced and stoked by people who actually did appear to attempt a self-coup - but one that may have been meant more for showmanship/political theater than for actual immediate results. (And quite potentially, different participants had different takes on whether the attempt was showmanship or meant to succeed).

So something like a staged self-coup.

I am starting to think there is nothing staged with Trump. He says random things and random things happen.

 

[Evie]

That would be why I said that not all of them might have had the same perception on whether it was staged.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

I am starting to think there is nothing staged with Trump. He says random things and random things happen.

Or does he? Is he an idiot or evil mastermind like The Joker?

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Or does he? Is he an idiot or evil mastermind like The Joker?

I lean towards the idiot hypothesis. But it is a general thing, i don't use to believe conspiracy theories not because I think politicians are not evil enough but because I think they are not smart enough. (some exceptions made)

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Or does he? Is he an idiot or evil mastermind like The Joker?

He's an egomaniac. Completely self obsessed. He's an idiot who has access to a lot of means, and surrounds himself with sycophants.

If he had been a mastermind, he would have been looking at a second term. And a third.

 

[Traitorfish]

This essay is consistent with most of what I feel about the events of Wednesday night.

"If it had been leftists breaking into the halls of power, we’d have known exactly what to do: declare a provisional revolutionary government, set up a thousand different subcommittees, and then immediately start braining each other with congressional paperweights in a series of bloody factional purges. This lot, meanwhile, had no idea what they were supposed to actually do once they were inside.

For a while they milled about, carrying flags and stealing things. They didn’t even start any fires; all they left with were some bits of wood and covid-19. There was no plan to any of this, because their brand of right-wing populism isn’t really a politics at all. It has no real coherent sense of what it wants to abolish or what it wants to uphold, and a long frantic scream instead of a theory of change. This is why you don’t need to worry that a ‘competent fascist’ might come along to pick up where Trump left off: incompetence and incoherence is the substance of this movement. Nothing that smells like ideological rigour will stick in our swirling stupid age."

I'm not wholly convinced by the final point, but I support that the broader argument about the ideological incoherence of this movement being a feature, not a bug. It wasn't simply that this wasn't an attempted coup, it couldn't have been: very few of the people involved had any idea what they wanted, and the crowd certainly possessed no collective sense of what they were for or even, really, what they were against, except their limitless faith in and affection for Donald Trump, and their hatred of his perceived enemies (which at this stage, is just about everyone). Perhaps if somebody had provided them with a coup, they would have merrily carried it out- that may be where I and the author disagree- but there was never any prospect of the mob carrying out coherent political action under their own direction, because they are not possessed of the sort of coherent political agency which is the necessary prerequisite for any such action.

 

[Ferocitus]

Coffman told police that he had Mason jars filled with melted Styrofoam and gasoline.
I bet he didn't pay for those jars.

 

[Grisu]

I have doubts that a civil war caused by a Trumpist rebellion would be such a bad thing. Obviously, the Trumpists would lose. The publicity would destroy the Republican Party. The violent, gun-toting rebels will die, either in battle or to capital punishment. With the extremists eliminated and their enablers losing power, our nation can move forward and finally join the civilized world.

And how many would lose their lives in the process?

 

[r16]

the or any US Serviceperson (in any field) in this thread will not say that Trump has failed to play the crazy man trick . The gap in theory between America and China might have fallen from say 20 years to say 5 , Russia has been threatened far enough to remain hostile against America in defiance of publicly declared goals of Trump Administration to prevent know-how transfer to China . And yes , Trump has truly made China an enemy of the US , because all those people since Deng were preparing for but not actually desiring a showdown with the West . Not truly earth shattering on their own these things are , but Trump has proven countless times that he is a joke which then simply leads to a notion that the system that brought him to power must or might also be a joke . America has lost immense power and prestige and traction , now that countless numbers of dictators have witnessed America might not be that powerful , they might choose to delay obeying the orders that come down from Washington ; America has shot its bolt . This is why the current and former leaders of the US Military refused to support any challenge that might have kept Trump in charge ; he would be simply beyond belief if he was allowed to succeed . The people charging the Capitol Hill and whatnot might include nice people (without r16 picking a side in the American politics) but they would feel they would not be challenged , force a delay to force a showdown , so that the US Military would have to take a side , law and order , bloodbath must be prevented and that would be Trump , because every Middle Easterner knows the US Military is anything but respectful of human rights and all them cheezy concepts . The unplanned or underplayed chaos would have succeeded , if the US Military had chosen to do so . As it is , the half action has mobilized both sides and the showdown has simply been postponed , the coup has not been lost for the Republicans .

and yes , the poster will hate the next US Administration will equal facility , we should really start orbital bombardment . Because the very people who have brought the US to these dire straits and stuff were like talking of WW lll in 2014 , thinking they are the strong and the brave .

 

[Ferocitus]

the or any US Serviceperson (in any field) in this thread will not say that Trump has failed to play the crazy man trick . The gap in theory between America and China might have fallen from say 20 years to say 5 , Russia has been threatened far enough to remain hostile against America in defiance of publicly declared goals of Trump Administration to prevent know-how transfer to China . And yes , Trump has truly made China an enemy of the US , because all those people since Deng were preparing for but not actually desiring a showdown with the West . Not truly earth shattering on their own these things are , but Trump has proven countless times that he is a joke which then simply leads to a notion that the system that brought him to power must or might also be a joke . America has lost immense power and prestige and traction , now that countless numbers of dictators have witnessed America might not be that powerful , they might choose to delay obeying the orders that come down from Washington ; America has shot its bolt . This is why the current and former leaders of the US Military refused to support any challenge that might have kept Trump in charge ; he would be simply beyond belief if he was allowed to succeed . The people charging the Capitol Hill and whatnot might include nice people (without r16 picking a side in the American politics) but they would feel they would not be challenged , force a delay to force a showdown , so that the US Military would have to take a side , law and order , bloodbath must be prevented and that would be Trump , because every Middle Easterner knows the US Military is anything but respectful of human rights and all them cheezy concepts . The unplanned or underplayed chaos would have succeeded , if the US Military had chosen to do so . As it is , the half action has mobilized both sides and the showdown has simply been postponed , the coup has not been lost for the Republicans .

and yes , the poster will hate the next US Administration will equal facility , we should really start orbital bombardment . Because the very people who have brought the US to these dire straits and stuff were like talking of WW lll in 2014 , thinking they are the strong and the brave .

Keep Hectoring them, r16!

 

[r16]

so what . How do you know ı didn't save the cursed American Democracy , with bayonets factory produced not to shine ?

 

[Ferocitus]

so what . How do you know ı didn't save the cursed American Democracy , with bayonets factory produced not to shine ?

Huh?
How do you save Americans and their "cursed" democracy with "bayonets factory produced not to shine"?
Priam open like oysters?

 

[Azem.Ocram]

And how many would lose their lives in the process?

Far fewer innocent lives would be lost than by bending over backwards to appease the neo-nazis and neo-confederates.

 

[r16]

ah yes , the quote game . Well , maybe ı really have starships , having inherited from people who like discovered Atlantis or even Mu during the last century but not "enough" spacemarines . So , ı can land a battalion anywhere ... with cloaked flags and the trumpet for charge audible only with proper equipment ... The reason ı have been reported as materially supporting Jo Bidon the barrel is only because Trump has so little days left and he might do something about me , which is the end result of a decades long joke that has gone out of control long ago ; people can believe in so many fallacies and wrong things . And the Off-topic forum knows me well enough that ı am saving on the am an idiot parts . So , what's aim in challenging ?

 

[Ferocitus]

@Sommerswerd yep... if I had my way every single one of the traitors/terrorists would have been shot on the spot. 100% serious. They need to make an example to discourage others from trying it again.

Even though capital punishment doesn't work as a deterrent?
IMO it would be better to do some kind of prisoner exchange.

 

[Lexicus]

A self-coup is still an attempt to overthrow one regime and institute another in its place, with the caveat that the personnel of each regime are the [edit: same]. The furthest horizon of Wednesday's events were that they somehow did result in Trump pulling out some final ace which allowed him to remain president; this is not a coup, because no change of regime has occurred. The existence regime has been maintained, however diminished and discredited.

A self-coup, or autocoup (from the Spanish autogolpe), is a form of putsch or coup d'état in which a nation's leader, despite having come to power through legal means, dissolves or renders powerless the national legislature and unlawfully assumes extraordinary powers not granted under normal circumstances.

What happened on the 6th quite clearly falls into that definition; whether all the rioters intended to or not, it is obvious that some of them intended to kidnap and/or murder members of Congress (that guy with the zipties for example).

The fact that this coup failed, does not mean it was not an attempted coup. I do believe that Trump's intent was to have the mob massacre Congress, and then Trump could assume emergency powers/declare martial law to "restore order". That it was, ultimately, a deeply incompetent attempt should not diminish its seriousness.

This was not a coup. The reason that some claim it was a coup, the only reason, is that they have spent the last twelve months expecting a coup, had convinced themselves that such an event was inevitable, so when some sort of civil unrest occurred, it must have been the coup they had predicted. The alternative would be conceding that the elaborate story they had built for themselves, a story so-far fetched as to cast geriatric segregationist Joseph Biden as the saviour of American democracy, was hysterical nonsense, and nobody is quite prepared to let go of that just yet.

On the contrary, you appear to be refusing to call this an attempted coup because to do so would be to admit that you have been wrong all along about the level of danger posed by Donald Trump and his supporters. I suppose it is also possible that you are just not aware of everything that took place.

 

[Lexicus]

Sure. I wouldn't be mourning goat boy getting the back end of a rifle intimate with his face. But they, the cops, did better than I would have hoped for the most part. Retroactively wishing for it to be worse is something different. Being irritated they didn't get shot instead of rifle-butted is something different again. Probably sick in the head in a way most of us are at least a little.

I'd say I retroactively wish for better. There should have been an effective security cordon around the building, then there'd have been little need for any deadly violence.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Goldman Sachs oopsie

OVERHEARD

After a tumultuous week in Washington, Goldman Sachs Group moved quickly to re-brand an event it is sponsoring for small-business owners to meet with lawmakers.

The Jan. 13 event had been dubbed “Storm the Hill.” Now it’s called Virtual Capitol Hill Day, and Goldman has asked participants, who are graduates of the bank’s entrepreneur-training program called 10,000 Small Businesses, not to wear the “Storm the Hill” T-shirts that had been mailed out. “We chose the slogan to represent our enthusiasm to take part in a democratic process to advocate for small business,” the bank wrote to participants. “If you have other 10,000 Small Businesses apparel, we would encourage you to wear it.”

Goldman has been lobbying for rent and child-care assistance for small businesses, favorable tax treatment for emergency loans that have kept some of them afloat through the pandemic, and liability protection for companies whose employees return to work with Covid-19 still raging. Chief Executive David Solomon, who has condemned the violence perpetrated by the pro-Trump mob and congratulated President-elect Joe Biden, on Tuesday was on Capitol Hill, where Goldman had installed 10,000 “Help Still Wanted” signs with pleas for assistance.

They were all in good taste.

 

[Lexicus]

They didn't even think what they were doing was wrong. That needs to change. Drastically. Lethal force would have done it for anyone else in the indefinite future that could have had similar ideas, regardless of their political motives. Which is exactly what I want.

Lethal force won't make them realize they were wrong. It will just give the ones who live a martyr complex.