using chariots to stifle your opponents?

[Watiggi]

GABB: Good points on promoting the Immortals with withdrawl and then going for the movement bonus. With the Keshiks (and most other units), I tend to go for the Combat promotions so that might be why I didn't see the advantage of withdrawing and getting the movement bonus. I have recently gotten rather used to the extra strength bonuses that come from the Combat promotion. They are powerful when they mount up (no pun intended).

Watiggi

 

[nealhunt]

An Immortal with multiple flanking is definitely sweet when it comes to withdrawal. However, many of the units in the mounted unit upgrade sequence do not get a basic withdrawal bonus, or get one much smaller than the 30% that Immortals get. Without that base bonus, I would much rather have the combat promotions, and if I have a Level 4 unit I usually want to upgrade it.

If you are attacking a unit that is near your level of ability to win, the chances of withdrawal aren't that great compared to the increased chance of actually winning instead. Combat promotions also open up the specialty promotions for mounted units that you will simply never reach if you go with Flanking.

Personally, I've pretty much written off Flanking promotions for just that reason. There's nothing like getting Military Tradition and having a stack of Knights ready for instant upgrade to Blitzing Cavalry. Or, if you are behind in tech, it's nice to watch your Combat II, Formation Knights hold off the enemy's Cav.

 

[Watiggi]

nealhunt: I agree in its entirety. I would prefer Combat promotions over just about anything else. Once they get to Combat V, I go for march. That is the highest unit I have had so far (it was a Jaguar).

 

[futurehermit]

i like combat promotions as well, except in cases where i am specializing units (e.g., shock for some axemen for specialized counter-infantry; cover + city raider for specialized swordsmen city raiders + counter-archers; etc.)

 

[Watiggi]

I think the Combat promotions are the patient ones that really build up a unit, but it takes a while. So I tend to feel like I have cheapened the unit in the shorterm by giving it something like City Raider (except with seige), Cover, Shock, Medic, March, etc. But yeah, the "short term" promotions are useful too. I am sure its just a stage I am going through though, as I had other preferences before.

 

[Oggums]

City Raider is the long-term use. Raider first, then Combat.

Promote them to raider Grenadiers or Rifles (raider redcoats $$), or later, raider mech inf.

 

[Watiggi]

A Combat V Infantry has a strength of 30 (not to mention the healing bonuses in neutral and enemy territory). That's better than a tank

 

[Oggums]

Would you rather have combat V infantry, or Combat V Raider III Infantry?

Really, you should be using both. The combat guys escort your raiders.

 

[futurehermit]

^^yeah i like the idea of having two kinds of the same unit. like early on having some shock axes to support your city raider axes. same thing later on having shock maces (or combat, or whatever your preference is) to support your city raider ones. that's a good tip i picked up on the forums, probably from you

 

[GABB]

I used to promote my units with combat promotions thinking in a long-term use. However, in my experience, upgrades are expensive and this chariots with combat III usually are parking in cities in modern era, in this moment I can build Cavalries (or something else) from my West Point City, getting this promotion.

I agree with city raider promotion, but in this case (immortal rush) I prefer mobility. In my experience, I cover almost all the continent in the early war without problems with my Flanking I + II + Mobility Immortals. I don’t know if Combat promotion work better than immunity to first strike when you fight with archers (each Combat promotions add only 0.4 strength to immortals).

I enjoy playing in this way.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

What does Mobility really do? The documentation says "-1 terrain movement cost," but since the terrain movement cost for flatlands is 1, that would mean 0 cost for nearly all tiles, which seems like you could teleport anywhere in one turn (even better than railroads). That can't be true. What is the real effect that you get with that promotion?

 

[Araqiel]

What does Mobility really do? The documentation says "-1 terrain movement cost," but since the terrain movement cost for flatlands is 1, that would mean 0 cost for nearly all tiles, which seems like you could teleport anywhere in one turn (even better than railroads). That can't be true. What is the real effect that you get with that promotion?

Basically you gain the ability that Keshiks have out of the gate. You can move through jungle/hills/forests and only use up one movement point. "-1 terrain movement cost, with a minimum of 1" would be more accurate.

 

[GABB]

Basically you gain the ability that Keshiks have out of the gate. You can move through jungle/hills/forests and only use up one movement point. "-1 terrain movement cost, with a minimum of 1" would be more accurate.

This is EXACTLY.

Suggestion: Don't promote neither Keshiks nor War Elephants. Keshiks has mobility naturally and War Elephants are 1 movement unit and don’t receive anything from reducing terrain movement cost to 1.

 

[Watiggi]

yeah, Keshik's cant get another -1 terrain movement cost.

 

[StrideCollosus]

Originally
I've always liked the look of war chariots but Egypt's traits are crap for early warmongering. No aggressive for cheap barracks. No organized to keep city maintenance down. No financial to pay for maintenance and unit support. Don't you quickly bankrupt yourself after you take the first couple AI cities? That has traditionally been my problem with early warfare. And the earlier you fight, the worse the problem is.

Don't keep the cities. Just take the capitals and/or ones with wonders and/or particularly good locations. Burn the rest No resistance, no dealing with unhappy rebel population, no additional maintenance.

 

[futurehermit]

yeah, with egypt, i would say raze cities when you can do so without suffering many losses, and also use your chariots to stifle your opponent until you have enough $$ to shut them down and afford their cities.

 

[gunkulator]

Don't keep the cities. Just take the capitals and/or ones with wonders and/or particularly good locations. Burn the rest No resistance, no dealing with unhappy rebel population, no additional maintenance.

Good point, however I find that if I am fighting Civ A and razing their cities, Civ B will come along and resettle the area, getting improved land for free. Civ B already had the advantage of not committing hammers for war and by resettling, they grow even stronger.

 

[GABB]

Good point, however I find that if I am fighting Civ A and razing their cities, Civ B will come along and resettle the area, getting improved land for free. Civ B already had the advantage of not committing hammers for war and by resettling, they grow even stronger.

You know what to do: .... raze Civ B's cities too ...

 

[Oggums]

Kill 'em all.

 

[scottcstoness]

An Immortal with multiple flanking is definitely sweet when it comes to withdrawal. However, many of the units in the mounted unit upgrade sequence do not get a basic withdrawal bonus, or get one much smaller than the 30% that Immortals get. Without that base bonus, I would much rather have the combat promotions, and if I have a Level 4 unit I usually want to upgrade it.

True, but Cavalry have a big base bonus to withdraw, and if you go nuts with the Immortals, you can probably make it to Cavalry before you need to fight with mounted units (you can always pick up a city or three with catapults and macemen in between).

If you are attacking a unit that is near your level of ability to win, the chances of withdrawal aren't that great compared to the increased chance of actually winning instead. Combat promotions also open up the specialty promotions for mounted units that you will simply never reach if you go with Flanking.

Which is the beauty of Immortals with Flanking 2; they withdraw *at least* 60% of the time. So why are you attacking things that have equal strength? You use your (relatively rare) combat 2 promoted Immortals for that. Flanking 2 immortals (or, later, cavalry), can happily attack almost anything with a pretty good chance of not dying. The table below shows various odds that you'll see of winning, along with the odds of retreating, and your total odds of surviving.

[FONT="Lucida Console"]
Win%    Retreat%    Live%
   0     .0*.6 = 60    60
  10     .9*.6 = 54    64
  20     .8*.6 = 48    68
  30     .7*.6 = 42    72
  40     .6*.6 = 36    76
  50     .5*.6 = 30    80
  60     .4*.6 = 24    84
  70     .3*.6 = 18    88
  80     .2*.6 = 12    92
  90     .1*.6 = 6      96
[/FONT]

Notice that even with 0% odds of winning, you'll live through 60% of the battles (although you also won't do much damage), and this is much higher than the threshold I usually use for attacks with cheap units.

Once you get above about 60% outright attack odds, you are better off attacking with a combat promoted unit; it will be almost as likely to win as your flanker will be to survive. Basically, the flanking units are very cheap units that don't die very often, esp. if you have a medic 1 or better yet, a medic 2 running around with them.

Those that survive to get their third promotion gets some options:

1) Give them sentry for the vision; great for scouting, great for making vast areas of the world immune to barbarian pop-ups -- great way to keep that territory you'd like to settle next relatively problem free.

2) Give them the terrain mobility promotion for pillaging -- instant half-strength keshiks that get terrain defenses (I say half-strength because you would have combat 3 on that keshik by now for 7.8 base str).

3) Give them combat promotions and you get units that can flank attack even stronger defensive units causing more damage.

Personally, I've pretty much written off Flanking promotions for just that reason. There's nothing like getting Military Tradition and having a stack of Knights ready for instant upgrade to Blitzing Cavalry. Or, if you are behind in tech, it's nice to watch your Combat II, Formation Knights hold off the enemy's Cav.

OK, but 60% retreat cavalry can do a nice job of attacking anything short of infantry, and a stack of mixed flanking and combat promoted cavalry (say, 2 of each) makes a pretty mean pillaging machine; a flanker followed by a combat promoted attack will take out just about any enemy unit short of tanks.