Vokarya's Workshop: Wonders

[<Nexus>]

Are you sure it works like this? I always thought that it works as supposed to, i.e. for piazza san Marco both markets and forums are built in respective cities.

In my experience it always worked like that.
I also clearly recall Stonehenge giving Monuments but no Obelisks and vice versa.
I say Monuments because it was that way for the time I remember, I guess in 1.75 too. Maybe BTS too? Dunno this one.
If you don't believe me, test it yourself

 

[Noyyau]

What happened to me in a recent game: I had Olympic Games (free Arena in every city), then conquered a Bangladeshi city (playing with MegaCivPack), whose UB is a replacement for the Arena. The city now under my control only has a normal Arena (which is a pity, that UB gives a free Combat1 to units made there! A Colosseum in every city for Bangladesh!!)

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

That might be a problem with MCP update. Also, were you using Assimilation option?

 

[Noyyau]

Yes, Assimilation is on.

 

[Vokarya]

Are you sure it works like this? I always thought that it works as supposed to, i.e. for piazza san Marco both markets and forums are built in respective cities.

I just tested it, and it is a problem. If you have a Wonder that provides a free building, and the free building is replaced by a UB, when you conquer another civilization's city, that city gets no free buildings at all.

Example: Start a game as Egypt, get Stonehenge. You get free Obelisks in Egyptian cities. If you then conquer a non-Egyptian city, it doesn't get any free buildings. Standing Stone stays on the build list.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I just tested it, and it is a problem. If you have a Wonder that provides a free building, and the free building is replaced by a UB, when you conquer another civilization's city, that city gets no free buildings at all.

Example: Start a game as Egypt, get Stonehenge. You get free Obelisks in Egyptian cities. If you then conquer a non-Egyptian city, it doesn't get any free buildings. Standing Stone stays on the build list.

OK, I'll have a look at it.
By the way, I don't remember if you were already looking at it, but did you by chance had a look at improvements costs and developing times? I've noticed in a quick test that for a shaft mine to become a modern mind when you build it you only need 1 turn (on Blitz); maybe we should make it longer. Otherwise there's no point in spending more money to build a modern mine straight away. What do you think?

 

[Vokarya]

OK, I'll have a look at it.
By the way, I don't remember if you were already looking at it, but did you by chance had a look at improvements costs and developing times? I've noticed in a quick test that for a shaft mine to become a modern mind when you build it you only need 1 turn (on Blitz); maybe we should make it longer. Otherwise there's no point in spending more money to build a modern mine straight away. What do you think?

I will take a look.

 

[<Nexus>]

What happened to me in a recent game: I had Olympic Games (free Arena in every city), then conquered a Bangladeshi city (playing with MegaCivPack), whose UB is a replacement for the Arena. The city now under my control only has a normal Arena (which is a pity, that UB gives a free Combat1 to units made there! A Colosseum in every city for Bangladesh!!)

You are probably using an outdated version of MCP.
Try THIS. Maybe you should also remove your previous MCP.
I understand why the confusion is: Different versions are available in different threads.
I'm planning to make an update with some new thing and curing this confusion.

 

[Vokarya]

OK, I'll have a look at it.
By the way, I don't remember if you were already looking at it, but did you by chance had a look at improvements costs and developing times? I've noticed in a quick test that for a shaft mine to become a modern mind when you build it you only need 1 turn (on Blitz); maybe we should make it longer. Otherwise there's no point in spending more money to build a modern mine straight away. What do you think?

The immediate answer is that Shaft Mine has an upgrade time of 0, so it upgrades to Modern Mine with no turn delay. I looked into it, and when I was looking, I found some other problems. It costs much more to build a Windfarm than a Windtrap. There is no way to currently build an Industrial Complex. I think Forts should upgrade to Bunkers and Command Centers. I'm going to look at all of the improvement upgrade paths and see if we can balance them a little more.

 

[nionios]

In a city where I've built Versailles there's a distance bad factor (4) for revolutions,so I guess that this wonder doesn't count as capital because it doesn't eliminate the "distance from capital" instability.Am I right?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

In a city where I've built Versailles there's a distance bad factor (4) for revolutions,so I guess that this wonder doesn't count as capital because it doesn't eliminate the "distance from capital" instability.Am I right?

AFAIK it should work, can you post a save? Thanks.

 

[nionios]

AFAIK it should work, can you post a save? Thanks.

Save uploaded.

 

[<Nexus>]

In my recent game I am just about to build Pont du Gard and an idea hit me.
It currently gives +2 on continent, which is a commonly used bonus, not so exciting.
How about this:
+1 from Aqueduct (Okay, is it possible at all?)
+50% production speed for Aqueducts in all cities.
I think this wonder should be more tied to Aqueducts.
Just an idea

 

[RyoHazuki]

I like it!

 

[<Nexus>]

Just noticed that National Shielding gives a free Archology Shielding in every city and is also replacing it, but without giving the same bonuses as A.S.
I think A.S. just should not upgrade to N.S.

 

[Vokarya]

In my recent game I am just about to build Pont du Gard and an idea hit me.
It currently gives +2 on continent, which is a commonly used bonus, not so exciting.
How about this:
+1 from Aqueduct (Okay, is it possible at all?)
+50% production speed for Aqueducts in all cities.
I think this wonder should be more tied to Aqueducts.
Just an idea

I think this is clever enough that I will do it with +1 health to all cities on the same continent, +50% Aqueduct production, and counts as a fresh water source. Just in case something happens to the Aqueduct itself.

+X health from buildings isn't possible with another building, according to the schema. <BuildingHappinessChanges> exists for buildings, but not the parallel <BuildingHealthChanges>. Civics can do both.

 

[Vokarya]

I'm looking at the National Wonders to clear up the icon issues, and I do not think we need to have both the Deep Space Research Institute and the Space Laboratory.

They are so close together and so few differences between the two that I don't think we need both.

Stats comparison:

Deep Space RI Space Lab
Required Tech Space Flight Space Stations
Required Project Hubble ISS
Cost 560 980
Science 10% 30%
Specialist Slots 1 Scientist 2 Scientist
Great PP +1 Scientist +1 Scientist
Spaceship 20% 20% Global

Other things I don't like are having a global space production bonus on a National Wonder and, in general, having space production bonuses on anything in the Modern Era. I don't think it's much of a choice if you can have all your bonuses in place before you even start building your spaceship. In original BTS, the Laboratory is not available until Superconductors, so you have a choice between pursuing Superconductors and getting Laboratories in place, or get the other techs first which lets you start building some parts without Labs.

I think we should consolidate with the DSRI being at Space Stations. It can keep the +30% science bonus and 2 Scientist slots, but I think it should have just 20% Spaceship production and not 20% global space production. Hubble can get a small global Science bonus (I think +10% is fair) instead.

---

I also looked into the possibility of combining the Rubber Factory and Rubber Plant. I can't see a way to do this legitimately without a lot of work.

Rubber Factory requires Refining and makes Vulcanized Rubber out of Rubber and Lead. Rubber Plant requires Plastics and makes Vulcanized Rubber out of Chemicals. It is not possible to do Resource X or (Resource Y with Tech Z).

Both Refining and Plastics are on the low end of trick counts. Refining has 2 other tricks (Well, Oil Refinery) and Plastics has 2.5 (Hydro Plant, Offshore Platform, Napalm Bombs promo). I don't want to reduce a tech into that range if it's avoidable.

Furthermore, consolidating the two at Plastics makes Plastics an additional prerequisite for Motorcycle and Armored Car. (Most of the other things that require Vulcanized Rubber are later on the tech tree and won't notice any changes.) This is okay for Armored Car but really hurts Motorcycle. I'd like Motorcycle to have a reasonable lifespan until Jeep shows up. Automobile is on the prereq chain to Plastics and so Motorcycle wouldn't show up until then.

Consolidating at Refining is possible, but I don't like it very much. The Chemicals resource is available before Refining, so it becomes much less of a limitation. Moving up Organic Chemistry would fix that, but it means rewriting somewhere between half and two-thirds of the Industrial Era, which I don't want to tackle at this time.

 

[Rezca]

I like the thoughts on the Deep Space Research / Space Lab notes. Dropping the latter and moving the former to another tech.


The Rubber situation seems pretty tricky. D:

 

[Vokarya]

There is one other option that I thought of for cleaning up the Rubber situation, and that is to skip Vulcanized Rubber completely, use the Rubber resource raw, eliminate the Rubber Factory, and have the Rubber Plant create raw Rubber from Chemicals. I don't really want to do this either. The Industrial Era is where AND starts to take a major turn from raw resources to processed resources. I don't see a need to specify every step of the refining processes, but I think one layer of processed materials (Steel, Aluminum, Oil Products, Vulcanized Rubber) is acceptable.

 

[<Nexus>]

There is one other option that I thought of for cleaning up the Rubber situation, and that is to skip Vulcanized Rubber completely, use the Rubber resource raw, eliminate the Rubber Factory, and have the Rubber Plant create raw Rubber from Chemicals.

I don't think its a bad idea anyway.