Vokarya's Workshop: Wonders
- Thread starter Vokarya
- Start date
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Labyrinth of Knossos is an other wonder I feel very under-powered. It's an interesting wonder and I like its base effect too, just... I never feel tempted to build it 
Some ideas came into my mind to improve it:
Some ideas came into my mind to improve it:
- Free Heroic promotion (for Theseus killing the Minotaur). Maybe it's to much? Some free Xp would be just... boring?
- +1 and/or +1
for Ceremonial Altar (for the youths sacrificed).
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
In case some modern era techs could use an extra trick I have a wonder idea.
The Channel Tunnel
When built it connects the city with every other friendly (own, vassal or team-mate) cities within 5(?)tiles. Besides some
, and 
bonus, its real advantage would be to provide tunnels much earlier than they otherwise would be possible (iirc tunnels need some early transhuman rea tech).
Just an idea. Maybe you can make a use of it
The Channel Tunnel
When built it connects the city with every other friendly (own, vassal or team-mate) cities within 5(?)tiles. Besides some
, and bonus, its real advantage would be to provide tunnels much earlier than they otherwise would be possible (iirc tunnels need some early transhuman rea tech).Just an idea. Maybe you can make a use of it
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Corporation Headquarters are technically wonders (right?), so I thought I'd put this here...
But, the Safari corporation benefits from: Elephants, Whales, Fur, and Deer.... Those first three obsolete, some before the enabling tech for the Corporation even comes about. Can the corporation still benefit from obsoleted resources? If it can't, then I don't see this as being a very worthwhile corporation to have around (And the AI seems to build over these resources when they obsolete from time to time as well, so they probably won't benefit from this corp much either - unless you have a TON of deer, like the BTS mapscripts that fill the map with deer and forest)
As another note, the Civopedia says it's built by a Great General and the corporation HQ provides +1 Great General point per turn... Is that right?
But, the Safari corporation benefits from: Elephants, Whales, Fur, and Deer.... Those first three obsolete, some before the enabling tech for the Corporation even comes about. Can the corporation still benefit from obsoleted resources? If it can't, then I don't see this as being a very worthwhile corporation to have around (And the AI seems to build over these resources when they obsolete from time to time as well, so they probably won't benefit from this corp much either - unless you have a TON of deer, like the BTS mapscripts that fill the map with deer and forest)
As another note, the Civopedia says it's built by a Great General and the corporation HQ provides +1 Great General point per turn... Is that right?
Safari Hunters does have a problem. Whale does not actually obsolete in AND (it does in BTS), but Fur and Ivory do, so it's still a point. Obsolete resources do not count towards allowing a corporation to be built or for calculating corporation effects (I set up Safari Hunters in a city with only Fur, and turning on/off Plastics in WB affected the corporation).
I have no issues with Safari Hunters being founded by a Great General. Providing Great General points, though is a problem, and this also applies to Universal Soldiers; it's not the same as Great General points from combat, it's Great Person Points with a Great General flavor. Technically, a building (including a Wonder) can produce Great Person Points towards ANY unit, and the game simply chooses one point at random from the total accumulated points to decide what unit to give you when the GPP meter fills up. I had to fix Mapster a while back because it was producing GPP for a regular Spy instead of a Great Spy. So it's not technically wrong, but I don't think we want Great Generals produced other than from combat or techs, and any chance of actually producing the GP provided is miniscule compared to other sources of GPP.
So here's what I think we should actually do:
- Safari Hunters and Safari Hunters Guide moves to Imperialism. This corresponds to the era of the "Great White Hunter" in Africa, and gives you a chance to benefit from resources before they go obsolete. Also, Tourism is a horribly overstuffed technology. Out of all the techs in the mod, it has the highest trick count at 11 thanks to double-dipping on corporations and their associated corporate stores. (Masonry and Trade are next at 10.5, but Masonry is mostly shared Wonders with other techs and Trade is about to get Silk Road cut out of it which should help.)
- Ivory obsoleting moves to Ecology. I think this is a fair place for it. This gives you a little time to benefit.
- Safari Hunters HQ produces Great Merchant points and Ultimate Soldiers provides Great Spy points. This allows them to stack with other GPP sources.
- Safari Hunters Guide should get 1 free Specialist per Safari. Safari can still be built after Ivory goes obsolete.
How does that sound?
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Sounds very good to me Vokarya.
I've got a short list of Wonders to find some new effects for, but I'm working on sorting the tech tree file out so I can implement a change to the Transhuman Era. There are two other Wonders I would like to make some small changes to.
Hanging Gardens: Add Requires Fresh Water. I found this mechanic exists in the code but is currently unused. I think if we're going to implement a mechanic, we need to use it and use it more than once, and I think HG is a good fit for it. Keep in mind in regular BTS, HG requires Aqueduct. I think a Fresh Water requirement is fair without being too much of a hurdle to jump through.
Leonardo's Workshop: I'm not sure if the +50% science to the building city is necessary in addition to the +1 science per specialist. The last game I played, I built the Workshop, and the net boost was about +8% after all modifiers, so I don't think it's too strong. I feel though, that +50% science in general belongs on National Wonders, not World Wonders. I have to consider this in more detail, but I've started defining Wonder effects as oneshot (single one-time effect), bigshot (big effect that only affects the building city) or wideshot (civilization-wide effect). Bigshot effects generally apply to National Wonders and wideshot effects go on World Wonders, and this is also almost completely overshadowing Copernicus' Observatory, so that's another reason to excise the % science bonus. If anyone has a game right around building Leonardo's Workshop, I'd like to see it; I'm considering going to either +1 science/+1 culture per specialist, or +2 science/specialist, but I'm afraid that I simply am not assigning enough specialists to really exploit this.
Hanging Gardens: Add Requires Fresh Water. I found this mechanic exists in the code but is currently unused. I think if we're going to implement a mechanic, we need to use it and use it more than once, and I think HG is a good fit for it. Keep in mind in regular BTS, HG requires Aqueduct. I think a Fresh Water requirement is fair without being too much of a hurdle to jump through.
Leonardo's Workshop: I'm not sure if the +50% science to the building city is necessary in addition to the +1 science per specialist. The last game I played, I built the Workshop, and the net boost was about +8% after all modifiers, so I don't think it's too strong. I feel though, that +50% science in general belongs on National Wonders, not World Wonders. I have to consider this in more detail, but I've started defining Wonder effects as oneshot (single one-time effect), bigshot (big effect that only affects the building city) or wideshot (civilization-wide effect). Bigshot effects generally apply to National Wonders and wideshot effects go on World Wonders, and this is also almost completely overshadowing Copernicus' Observatory, so that's another reason to excise the % science bonus. If anyone has a game right around building Leonardo's Workshop, I'd like to see it; I'm considering going to either +1 science/+1 culture per specialist, or +2 science/specialist, but I'm afraid that I simply am not assigning enough specialists to really exploit this.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Excellent analysis and proposals as usual.
I'm going to do some more analysis on the save games I have with Leonardo's Workshop. I tested out one game and found that +2 science/specialist was close to equivalent to the ability +60% science in all cities (by comparing science counts with the Workshop science bonus removed, elevated to +2, or replaced by +10% science all cities). This is going to vary between games of course, but I'm leaning now towards +1 science/+1 culture per specialist from the Workshop.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
Seems fair enough, though I'm not sure I've ever built a Safari before - might be a first then
I forgot that Whale doesn't obsolete anymore, so there's two our of four resources that can still permanently contribute to the corporation - should anyone find themselves building it of course.
Great Merchant seems a better fit than Great General definitely
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
I personally would vote for +1
for all scientists and +1 for all artists in the civ; +25% and +25% in the city. I think this would well represent Leonardo's influence on the world and I don't remember any other wonder doing the same (at least around that time). IMHO of course I agree all the rest.
I'm probably going to do a build at some point before I start working on new Wonder effects. This is the current list of Wonders that either someone else has suggested be upgraded or that I want to upgrade.
Are there any others that come to mind that should be enhanced?
- Labyrinth of Knossos
- Silk Road
- Abu Simbel
- Copernicus' Observatory
- Women's Suffrage
Are there any others that come to mind that should be enhanced?
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
The Diplomatic Missions (or whatever the name is) NW is a little misleading as it is not yet working. I'd suggest to tag it out until it is done.
Oh! One more thing: Guilds and Corporate HQs as wonders could also have the +1wonder capacity tag. With realistic Corporations ON they may cripple your plans: You research a tech to unlock a certain wonder to build in a certain city, and in the meantime !BOOM! a guild/corporation is incorporated right in that city. Funny and annoying at the same time. Just happened to me yesterday.
The Diplomatic Missions (or whatever the name is) NW is a little misleading as it is not yet working. I'd suggest to tag it out until it is done.
Oh! One more thing: Guilds and Corporate HQs as wonders could also have the +1wonder capacity tag. With realistic Corporations ON they may cripple your plans: You research a tech to unlock a certain wonder to build in a certain city, and in the meantime !BOOM! a guild/corporation is incorporated right in that city. Funny and annoying at the same time. Just happened to me yesterday.
What is this diplomatic mission wonder..? I know UN mission but this one is new to me.
How is it meant to work?
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
I don't remember the name
but it has the same icon as UN, but is available in the classical era. It unlock a new set of options on the upper left corner. Affores is working on it. Once it is finished. you can set automatic responses for diplomatic actions, like always say no to Open Borders.Great idea, just not finished yet.
<Nexus>
Traveler of the Multiverse
Parliament civic building/national wonder.
It works as a "second palace", or 3rd or 4th or...
But show me a country where the parliament is not in the capital
So the "reduce maintenance in nearby cities" is not very appropriate.
It should require to be built in the capital and replace the above bonus with a -33%anarchy for example. We don't use that tag too often any way.
I agree. It is possible that the legal and historical capitals could be separate cities, but they're still going to be pretty close by and (highly likely) in your oldest cities. It's hardly a building that you should stick in an isolated part of your empire to reduce admin costs nearby.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Parliament civic building/national wonder
But show me a country where the parliament is not in the capital
Netherlands: capital Amsterdam, parliament in The Hague.
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