What benefits are there to playing wide?

Where do you guys find to put up even 5 cities with liberty?

I play small maps, usually the Continents map. (I play small because I don't think my computer can handle big maps).

I have trouble finding even three good city locations sometimes. Between city states and other civs there isn't a lot of room for putting up a whole 5 cities or whatever it is to warrant playing Liberty instead of Tradition.

I guess you could go early warmonger and take out another civ or a city state, but other than that do you really have the room, even on larger maps to build 5 cities or whatever? I'd think 3 cities with good locations is much better than 5 or 6 in crappy spots, no matter what else you are doing as far as policies go.
 
I've founded 5-6 cities with honor and without using liberty. The results gave my capital a little more security because aggresors couldn't attack my capital that easily.
 
You don't always have to place cities 5-6 tiles apart. In fact, if you're expecting low population, it might be better to concentrate your cities as much as possible, placing them the minimum 3 tiles apart.
 
Yeah you could do that if you started on a coast but if you start inland somewhere you would need to build the other areas to surround your capital particularly next to rivals since they could attack you. This is a way in which you could get other cities attacked and not your capital which would really damage your economy. Leaving gaps that allow enemy units attack your capital can be risky.
 
Assuming by going wide you are not referring to capping a bunch of puppets... then I would say there really aren't that many benefits. The penalties are so high, even if you could settle 6+ cities you would probably be better off just doing a 4 city Tradition build. It's kind of lame but that's just the way Firaxis left the game. I personally wish they would adjust this by allowing Liberty to reduce the science penalty for extra cities and maybe doubling the total pop happiness redux. Not likely to happen. It's just that Monarchy is so strong you're almost always disadvantaging yourself by not taking it and building up your cap pop. The penalties to culture and science for settling cities is like an extra kick in the shins.

If you're going "wide", consider Domination, Culture or Diplomacy as your win condition. Science just can't be done better than doing it tall. I personally think going wide is best achieved by sticking to the coast and having spammable unique/religious buildings. You'll need the luxes to REX, too.
 
Everything to me suggests that casual players told them that Civ IV had too many cities to manage to play effectively. Civ V is clearly less for the hardcore fan in many respects, and the ability to have a stronger empire by simply founding a few cities and then proceeding seems like it would be much easier for any random player to deal with.
 
But is that really easier than settling just 4 cities and never having to settle another one except to maybe grab that missing strat resource?
 
With 4 cities you should be having enough resources. With 5 cities you should more likely have the needed resources.
 
Production is indeed king in war, but why should having more cities help with that? Production comes from surrounding terrain (and other modifiers) so whether or not your population is consolidated in a few cities, or spread out among many, I don't see why you should bring in more production just for having a more spread out population.

Because you place the cities in productive areas, on hills and work hills, make a granary to work another hill, send a caravan to work more hills, makes mines on those hills. Making lots of cities yields more production than a few tall cities in most cases.

If your capital can grow in 5 turns or make a settler in 5 turns, the new city from a settler will yield more hammers than an extra population. Plus that entire new city will grow itself and work more production.

If you play in a team game on a land map, spamming cities is the way to go because team games are all about making as many units as possible. 4 tall cities simply can't out produce 8 - 10 cities.
 
What I noticed in the last China game and in some Austria games that I have been plying is the amount of GPT that comes in.

Here is a very wide aggressive empire:
Spoiler :


I married all the CS to create a huge red blob.

Well sure you'll get more gold that's a given but you also have to use it on more cities :)

so

Lets say i play a civ such as the celts or the mayans.

Their UA/UB are flat benefits per city (pyramid or faith from forest and the celtish hall), which would suggest wide will get the maximum benefit.

But does it really?

Also how do people time wide empires?.

Right now i tend to get 3 cities out fast, then ill often NC and drop my fourth city as the NC finishes.

Do wide players delay NC or do they settle in waves?. (For instance 3/4 city NC then expand again?)

And is liberty definitely better for wide?. I boringly pick tradition almost every game, the variation in my game is my second policy tree (usually piety, but with raging barbarians i dip into honour, and on water maps dip into exploration)...3rd tree is always rationalism.

Right now my best results with Liberty are with expanding up to your limit right away and use the finisher for NC.

The problem is not many people really even give it a try in the S&T forum so it's a bit difficult to say what really is the best way to play it.

Tradition isn't well suited to play wide. 5th and more cities get no hammer boost (freebies) and wide empire do not benefit very well from 15% growth. I'd stick to 4 with Tradition.

Where do you guys find to put up even 5 cities with liberty?

I play small maps, usually the Continents map. (I play small because I don't think my computer can handle big maps).

I have trouble finding even three good city locations sometimes. Between city states and other civs there isn't a lot of room for putting up a whole 5 cities or whatever it is to warrant playing Liberty instead of Tradition.

The bigger the map the more benefit you'll get out of Liberty. Small maps are ill suited for Liberty (unless you aim for early wars).

Everything to me suggests that casual players told them that Civ IV had too many cities to manage to play effectively. Civ V is clearly less for the hardcore fan in many respects, and the ability to have a stronger empire by simply founding a few cities and then proceeding seems like it would be much easier for any random player to deal with.

Civ5 has a way better balance on the wide vs tall topic than Civ4 ever had. Sure it's true that it's skewed toward small empires right now but it is not so bad as some people want to believe :lol: This skewness is inferior to the way Civ4 was geared toward rewarding big empires.
You could argue that this is not how Civ is supposed to be and that it's normal that big empires always come on top but I'd certainly disagree and preffer a good balance where Civ5 isn't very off. I love C4 for many aspects but this isn't one of them.
 
You could argue that this is not how Civ is supposed to be and that it's normal that big empires always come on top but I'd certainly disagree and preffer a good balance where Civ5 isn't very off. I love C4 for many aspects but this isn't one of them.

I totally agree, I think a lot of players do, too. It can get tedious managing so many cities as the game progresses, and certainly the idea that your empire can't keep up unless you found tons of cities makes it so that the only way to play effectively and win is to have to go through that tedious management. I certainly don't miss that. At the same time, every instinct I have wants to found more cities and expand! I don't miss managing the cities, but I did like seeing my cultural borders taking up the whole map!
 
If the problem is that people dislike tediously managing a lot of cities, the solution to that problem is not to address the "a lot of cities" part, but the "tediously managing" part. As interesting as it might be to think that a small and focused empire can compete with a large, sprawling one, the problem is that in practice, creating a small and focused empire is easy and boring, while creating and maintaining a large and sprawling empire is challenging. It's most obvious when playing the types of offshore expansion maps that a lot of people love: what is the point of founding new cities halfway across the globe when your current, 4-city empire is a lot better off just staying as a 4-city empire? Why go the extra mile of making a larger empire when your current, smaller one will do you just as fine? If people dislike how tedious it is to micromanage citizens in every single city all the time, writing better citizen automation code is the solution. If people dislike having to keep track of what buildings they need to build in which cities, introducing and having a reliable production automation system is the solution (think Civ5 puppets, but actually smart). If people have difficulty passing a college course, you give them more options that help them achieve a passing grade, you do not artificially lower the course's difficulty to high school level to let everyone pass...

At the risk of turning this into another one of the usual Civ5 design analysis threads, I believe that in its current form, the idea of wide vs. tall is flawed, both from a historical standpoint and from a gameplay standpoint. There is no reason why a large nation could not also have high population density; the choice of spreading out your population vs. concentrating it in a few central areas is a false one. From a gameplay perspective, if small empires can compete with large empires in all of Civ's few arenas of systems, there is no longer a reason to invest into growing your empire beyond its first few cities. In Civ5, people pick Liberty primarily because its challenges make it more fun to play than boring but reliable Tradition: having to juggle gold, happiness, culture, and timing military pushes is a lot more engaging than coasting your way to a peaceful, 4-city Tradition Space Victory or an Information Era Domination Victory. Civ4 might not have balanced tall vs. wide, but that's because it was never really an aim: small empires were not rewarded because expanding into a larger empire was a lot more challenging than just sitting in your corner of the world, trying to spam wonders, and obviously people should be rewarded for challenging play.

If the goal is to let people who play small empires remain relevant, than one of two things should be done: either small empires need to be presented with the types and magnitudes of challenges as those that are faced by people trying to create and maintain larger empires, or small empires must only be given incomparable advantages over large empires to balance out the numerical rewards of large empires. Let me give you a simple example of one possible incomparable advantage: a small-exclusive, empire-wide bonus (via civic, policy, etc.) that gives two free military promotions to all units. Small empires might be able to produce less units than large empires, but the units they produce will start with two extra promotions, and it is rarely clear whether or not the extra promotions are stronger than a numerical advantage (8 crossbowmen with Barrage II or 4 crossbowmen with Barrage III and Range?). Other examples might include: restrictions to flexibility (eg. in a Civ4 system, more cities would generate more anarchy when civics are changed), restrictions to choice that do not force players to flatout inferior choices (eg. in a Civ5 system, wide players would not be able to open as many policy branches, though vital branches like Rationalism would always be available), restrictions to diplomatic options (eg. in a Civ5 system, city-state influence would be much easier to acquire and maintain as a small empire than as a large one), etc. The key point is that the benefits given to small empires must not directly convert to the numerical bonuses that people would associate with large empires: you cannot compare proposed small advantages like being able to switch civics quickly or generally having more votes favor your proposals in World Congress to wide advantages like having more production or having more population, and that's ultimately how an ideal small vs. wide system would be designed.
 
I do understand why people may have said there is too many cities to manage etc on civ iv.

End game when going for domination i would have a lot of cities for sure, but that was what the vassal system was for (god i miss vassals and the huge superpower wars they caused)

Right now, it feels daft having decent land uncovered but unsettled late game...Its a bit of an immersion breaker for me although the real immersion breaker for me is the bizarre diplomacy.
 
You forgot the most vital policy in Liberty: Collective Rule. Basically, the strategy is to slowly build up your capitol while you rush Collective Rule, then start churning out settlers like nuts to settle as many cities as you can. Collective Rule not only gives you a free settler, but also doubles production on Settlers in your capitol, which is why it's better to wait until you unlock it before pumping out settlers.

Are you positive that's how it works? I'm pretty sure that adding 50% to production does not give you double production. That would be 100%. Adding 50% when you are making 10 hammers should only provide you with 15 hammers, not 20.
 
Thanks, corrected the original post. But yeah, churning out settlers is definitely the way to go. You shouldn't settle everything, of course, but basically any available site that would make for a decent city should be settled.
 
let's compare 100-pop empire for 3 cities and 10 cities
- it is much easier to grow 100 pop with 10 cities. You don't even need any building for that (granary/aqueduct/water mill)
- it is much easier to control happiness: besides the chance to capture more unique and trade-able resources, you may ease happiness problem with number of Colosseums/circus/stone works, not speaking about religious happiness buildings depending on religions you got
- you may work as many specialists slots as needed without hurting overall growth
- you may build special units without disturbing key cities production (army/caravans/archaeologists)
- it will not hurt that much if sneak attacker gets one of your cities
- it is really hard to cause damage to your empire by pillaging (when war starts - some cities will be able to work in normal mode)
... many other advantages may come
 
let's compare 100-pop empire for 3 cities and 10 cities
- it is much easier to grow 100 pop with 10 cities. You don't even need any building for that (granary/aqueduct/water mill)
- it is much easier to control happiness: besides the chance to capture more unique and trade-able resources, you may ease happiness problem with number of Colosseums/circus/stone works, not speaking about religious happiness buildings depending on religions you got
- you may work as many specialists slots as needed without hurting overall growth
- you may build special units without disturbing key cities production (army/caravans/archaeologists)
- it will not hurt that much if sneak attacker gets one of your cities
- it is really hard to cause damage to your empire by pillaging (when war starts - some cities will be able to work in normal mode)
... many other advantages may come

Well said. I still don`t get it why some are so against expanding. I understand advantages of having 4 city tall empire but from my experience having more cities is always better. You may have policy, science and happiness penalty but compared to what each of your city can produce regarding culture, science and happiness(combined with either faith buildings or ideology) is just insane, not to mention GPT, strategic resources and military production.

I really urge people to try having a 4 city tall empire on large pangea map on Deity(even Immortal if you are uncomfortable on Deity) and see where does this lead you...Also epic pace on large map works like a charm(just make sure you have quick combat and quick movement checked because otherwise it could really take ages)...
 
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