What do you think of rushing Metal Casting with the Danes?

[Athenaeum]

Provided that you get Philosophy first so you can build the National College.

I'm asking because my strategy is always and invariably to head straight for Education. If I really want the Petra I might get Currency first (which is on the path to Education anyways so it doesn't matter). I'll get Construction beforehand too if I need the Collosseums or Composite Bowmen.

But what would you think of the Danes getting Metal Casting before Education? Provided they built the National College beforehand, do you think doing this would put them too far behind in science for optimal use? On the other hand, they would get workshops and berserkers really, really early...

 

[Acken]

I always get metal casting before Education with Liberty no matter the civ so yes you can go MC with danemark.

If you want to use berserkers you even HAVE to go MC before education.

 

[Athenaeum]

Just to confirm, Entrepreneurship adds +1 embarked movement right?

Hate the fact that England gets more embarked moves than Denmark..really comes close to making them obsolete.

 

[Acken]

Yes entrepreneurship gives +1 embarked. Firaxis must have forgot to remove it. Danemark strength is their no movement cost on desembark, I think it's more useful than embark movement for melee units.

 

[Athenaeum]

True and I understand, but extra embarked moves is still part of their UA and I think its disappointing that another civ has a superior form of that UA when their UA is not really intended to relate to embarkation at all.

 

[Redaxe]

I always get metal casting before Education with Liberty no matter the civ so yes you can go MC with danemark.

If you want to use berserkers you even HAVE to go MC before education.

Ahhh so I'm not the only person that has come to that conclusion. Yeah I could never understand why everyone says 'rush education' when a Liberty player won't have large cities to make an early university viable.

I've realised just how valuable workshops are lately. A liberty player is going to have to build colosseums and eventually zoo's in practically every city let alone a larger army so you really do need a lot of extra production.

 

[Dushku]

I always get metal casting before Education

Same here. It's really hard pushing out a University in a decent time without that Workshop to fuel it.

A liberty player is going to have to build colosseums and eventually zoo's in practically every city

This was never my experience. Between Circuses, Pagodas, Meritocracy, numerous unique luxes, and buddying up with Maritime CSs, I rarely had to build Colosseums, let alone Zoos.

 

[Acken]

Yes and compounding the benefit of production towards the universities, the real loss in time is actually less than the detour.

It's also not that big a detour since you have to get fast engineering anyway.

Tradition is overall the most well popular and understood strategy and Liberty being less popular, players have to be mindful of what they hear. One day I may make a Liberty guide.

 

[Redaxe]

This was never my experience. Between Circuses, Pagodas, Meritocracy, numerous unique luxes, and buddying up with Maritime CSs, I rarely had to build Colosseums, let alone Zoos.

Hmmm whenever I play Liberty I'm always constrained by happiness and end up needing those Colosseums.

Even if you add up all the things you mentioned that is only about 10 happiness per city (assuming each city has 1 unique luxury <very hard to do>, circus <you can't guaranteed most of your cities will get horses/stone> and a couple happiness on average from a Mercentile CS)

That allows your city to stay happy at a size of 7. Eventually you'll have to work university specialists and you'll need those cities to grow to a size of 15. I can't see how people can manage without colosseums/zoo's. With the way Civ 5 Science is so population biased you simply have no choice but to grow population whether you want to or not.

 

[Acken]

I also often have to make Colosseums but the timing is often map dependent.

The fact maximus circus cost increases with empire size annoys the hell out of me though.

 

[Redaxe]

The fact maximus circus cost increases with empire size annoys the hell out of me though.

Yeah that one is real pain. The other issue too with happiness and Liberty is ideologies.

If you don't allow yourself a surplus of happiness through building zoo's and things Ideology unhappiness can really cripple you. A liberty civ is a lot more vulnerable to this than a Tradition civ.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Yeah, liberty NationalWs are a pain. I think the only one I can consistently build when I'm doing Liberty is obviously the NC

 

[Redaxe]

Yeah, liberty NationalWs are a pain. I think the only one I can consistently build when I'm doing Liberty is obviously the NC

Yeah I always try to model my Liberty games on Ancient Rome. But I swear I can never get a wide civ with all the early National Wonders by the time the date hits 100AD

 

[Dushku]

Ideology unhappiness can really cripple you. A liberty civ is a lot more vulnerable to this than a Tradition civ.

I disagree. It doesn't take much tourism at all to fend off ideology unhappiness. While it's a bit tougher while playing wide because you have to outsource a guild or two, it's easier in that you end up with a LOT more works slots. Ideologies are when wide really gets breathing room in my experience.

Also, your math before was just a touch off. Cities are 3 global unhappiness each and Meritocracy is 1 global happiness each. This means Liberty play can get 2 cities per lux.

That said, my lack of Colosseums might mean I wouldn't be competitive on higher difficulties. My technique was always stifle growth long enough to establish my borders, THEN grow and manage happiness. Also, right around the time I started playing Tradition again (it's actually Acken's fault; his Byzantine culture victory LP was amazing), I had been juggling with how early to work scientist slots while maintaining adequate growth.

 

[Athenaeum]

Yes and compounding the benefit of production towards the universities, the real loss in time is actually less than the detour.

It's also not that big a detour since you have to get fast engineering anyway.

Tradition is overall the most well popular and understood strategy and Liberty being less popular, players have to be mindful of what they hear. One day I may make a Liberty guide.

Why is fast engineering needed? I assume you're talking about Liberty to build aqueducts?

 

[Acken]

That should be obvious: to build aqueducts.

 

[Redaxe]

Also, your math before was just a touch off. Cities are 3 global unhappiness each and Meritocracy is 1 global happiness each. This means Liberty play can get 2 cities per lux.

Eh. I don't see how that is relevant. Yes Meritocracy provides +1 happiness. A luxury provides a flat +4 happiness to your civ regardless of how many cities you have. If you are playing Liberty and not building more than 5 cities you probably won't run into happiness problems. Players take Liberty when they intend to build > 6 cities and you can't guarantee that every city will be able to get an individual luxury.

It still doesn't change my earlier post that assuming 1 luxury per city = 4 happiness, 1 circus per city = 2 happiness, 1 pagoda per city = 2 happiness, meritocracy = 1 happiness.

That is 9 happiness and doesn't change the fact that you will inevitably need colosseums or zoo's if you want to grow past a size of 10.

That said, my lack of Colosseums might mean I wouldn't be competitive on higher difficulties. My technique was always stifle growth long enough to establish my borders, THEN grow and manage happiness. Also, right around the time I started playing Tradition again (it's actually Acken's fault; his Byzantine culture victory LP was amazing), I had been juggling with how early to work scientist slots while maintaining adequate growth.

What difficulty are you referring to? If you're referring to playing on prince or chieftan you can play anyway you like. The AI progresses more slowly in technology so growth isn't as important.
Try your strategy on Immortal and Diety and see if you can win. On higher difficulties you cannot afford to not grow your civ so you need Colosseums and zoo's just to keep happy.

 

[Acken]

When I say I need Colloseum it's when I play Liberty with 6 to 8 cities. When I play a tradition game like the Byzantium LP I often don't need them.

 

[Kriogen]

If you are into XB rush, then after Philosophy you go in that direction anyway. Doesn't have to be Danes.

Edit: and Persia. Not just XB rush. Happy faces are persian Unique Ability.

 

[Dushku]

I already acknowledged that my not using Colosseums could be attributed to lower skill level, making further discussion moot. That said, I'd like to answer this question:

Eh. I don't see how that is relevant.

You said 1 luxury per city. When you put forth an objective claim, you are also saying 1) there's such a thing as truth 2) there's such a thing as falsehood 3) truth is preferable to falsehood. To that end...

If a lux provides 4 happiness and a city only provides 2 unhappiness (3-1 for Meritocracy), then that would be 1 lux per *2* cities. Since YOU acknowledged that truth is preferable to falsehood, the correction should be welcome whether you feel it is relevant or not. To resist such a correction is to confess that you're more interested in somebody just believing what you say rather than being able to convince them with logic, reason, and evidence. Even after you had done exactly that. *scratches head*