What do you think of rushing Metal Casting with the Danes?

[Redaxe]

You said 1 luxury per city. When you put forth an objective claim, you are also saying 1) there's such a thing as truth 2) there's such a thing as falsehood 3) truth is preferable to falsehood. To that end...

If a lux provides 4 happiness and a city only provides 2 unhappiness (3-1 for Meritocracy), then that would be 1 lux per *2* cities. Since YOU acknowledged that truth is preferable to falsehood, the correction should be welcome whether you feel it is relevant or not. To resist such a correction is to confess that you're more interested in somebody just believing what you say rather than being able to convince them with logic, reason, and evidence. Even after you had done exactly that. *scratches head*

Whatever I'm too tired to nitpick over this.

 

[reddishrecue]

Well rushing metal casting with the danes will lead to its uu, the berserker that replaces the longswordsman, could take research time away from getting an early banking system that could be useful for making banks. I would rather steal for metal casting and rush research to banking instead.

 

[Dushku]

Here's a question. How viable is getting Workshops before Universities if you're playing on Tradition?

 

[Acken]

I personally don't really see the point. Tradition can work them early, tradition has more hammers per city or more gold to rush buy where production sucks.

Finally you don't need the bottom of the tree at all with tradition so the opportunity cost is bigger.

 

[Redaxe]

Here's a question. How viable is getting Workshops before Universities if you're playing on Tradition?

Tradition gives you free Aqueducts regardless of whether you have engineering technology or not.
About the only time you need to prioritise the lower half of the tech tree in Tradition is if you need to get to Construction early for composite bowmen if you're threatened by a neighbor.
A University costs 160 hammers, an aqueduct is 100 hammers but the Tradition player gets this for free so they aren't quite as dependent on an early workshop as a Liberty player is.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Here's a question. How viable is getting Workshops before Universities if you're playing on Tradition?

It's not really. The point of beeline for Education in a Tradition game works because your cities should be big enough to outright work the sci slots. Usually the early game money piles up (barring a setback) allowing at least rush buy one uni. Some people like workshops before unis in a culture game, which would make more sense as you need lots of hammers for a good CV

On Liberty cities tend to be smaller and working sci slots should wait until the gaps are filled with additional pop.

 

[Athenaeum]

Tradition gives you free Aqueducts regardless of whether you have engineering technology or not.
About the only time you need to prioritise the lower half of the tech tree in Tradition is if you need to get to Construction early for composite bowmen if you're threatened by a neighbor.
A University costs 160 hammers, an aqueduct is 100 hammers but the Tradition player gets this for free so they aren't quite as dependent on an early workshop as a Liberty player is.

I feel that a Liberty player would be even more dependent on a University though, to make up for their science disadvantage. Even if they prioritized Education over Metal Casting, they would still get to it later than Tradition civs.

I also disagree with the people who think that you need a workshop to build a University in reasonable time. It is really not that expensive and worth the timely science boost.

 

[Acken]

It's not at universities that Liberty catches up. It is at ideologies. The fact you're late compared to tradition shouldn't bother you at that stage.

Workshops are not there just for universities. THey accelerate everything in between too. Early hammers are always better than late. It also make building the Ironworks after universities way easier.

 

[Dushku]

So if you are playing Tradition, how soon after Education do you go for Metal Casting?

 

[Bimblecrumbs]

You should get Metal Casting immediately after Education.

 

[Redaxe]

I feel that a Liberty player would be even more dependent on a University though, to make up for their science disadvantage. Even if they prioritized Education over Metal Casting, they would still get to it later than Tradition civs.

I also disagree with the people who think that you need a workshop to build a University in reasonable time. It is really not that expensive and worth the timely science boost.

Well its more that a Liberty player needs more extra early production.

Liberty doesn't give you free aqueducts or free gold and requires more military units and happiness buildings to work.
So assuming a wide liberty civ (not-sacred sites) you're going to have to build an aqueduct, market, colosseum, circus in all your cities which for a Tradition player aren't as necessary. The sooner you get your workshop the faster those buildings arrive.

 

[Athenaeum]

Well its more that a Liberty player needs more extra early production.

Liberty doesn't give you free aqueducts or free gold and requires more military units and happiness buildings to work.
So assuming a wide liberty civ (not-sacred sites) you're going to have to build an aqueduct, market, colosseum, circus in all your cities which for a Tradition player aren't as necessary. The sooner you get your workshop the faster those buildings arrive.

Workshops cost gold too. Currency is on the way to Civil Service by the way, which precedes Education.

I understand that Liberty just has a lot of needs in general, but if you're already behind in science as it is, putting yourself even more behind by de-prioritizing Education is only going to hurt you later on in the game, from my view.

 

[Acken]

So if you are playing Tradition, how soon after Education do you go for Metal Casting?

You should get Metal Casting immediately after Education.

Renaissance is the most important so you'll have to make sure you can get renaissance at the right time but after education you'll want to get MC as soon as possible as long as you can still get a good renaissance timing.

 

[reddishrecue]

I see the point in getting workshops early and therefore increasing production including future bank production for more gold. I guess gaining technology all the way to iron working and then metal casting could be good because these are technologies that don't use up that much research and steal for steel and later technologies along the beeline which could be worth it more than stealing earlier beeline technologies such as iron working.

 

[Dushku]

Renaissance is the most important so you'll have to make sure you can get renaissance at the right time but after education you'll want to get MC as soon as possible as long as you can still get a good renaissance timing.

About this, should I be trying to get from Tradition straight into Rationalism? I've had a few games lately where I didn't hard build my first Monument and I didn't work the Writer's Guild right away to keep my culture low. This allowed me to hit Renaissance before my first "filler" policy. At which point, I worked my Writer's Guild and ramped my CPT for a quick Secularism.

When I looked into how much others do something like this, I was told that having filler policies is a good thing. Like, I want to dabble in Patronage some. But the need for that isn't until later anyways. It seems to me that getting Secularism, Free Thought, and some key ideology tenets first would be better.

So I guess my question is: How hard should I be trying to go straight from Tradition to Rationalism? Would it be okay to go ahead and work the Writer's Guild right away for accumulated culture's sake and just deal with having ONE filler policy? Especially since not opening Patronage at that point means I wouldn't be able to until after Forbidden Palace is built anyways.

 

[Acken]

To be honest your culture efficiency is mostly dependent on how many cultural CS you can get. And the more the better because they make a huge difference. Tommynt's TSG110 is a good example of that.
But if working the guild would make you miss renaissance by say 10-15 turns then it's probably not worth it and slowing down would be a good idea.

 

[reddishrecue]

Both ways are efficent when it comes to building culture because you dont always have to pay city states and instead carry out their quest efficiently to gain alliance points. Getting a great writer would be good if city states ask for it and for eventual future tourism. Culture city states and great workers are both good cultural generators but there can be other quests that city states may ask for which you can fulfill such as building a certain wonder, making a great merchant or establishing a trade route with them.

 

[Dushku]

great workers

On a side note, thank you for saying this! I've been trying to figure out a good way to collectively address great writers, artists, and musicians. This does it fabulously

 

[Acken]

They're usually reffered to as GWAM too

 

[Tabarnak]

Here's a question. How viable is getting Workshops before Universities if you're playing on Tradition?

Always viable. But why go Education first then? Because Tradition offers a possibility to get enough gold to rush buy some universities. Make sure to get enough pop when you got them. Liberty is a bit slower to get enough population to support gs points so you need something else to build that will help for the future while it grows enough.