What progess has been made in Iraq

[blindside]

Threw out Saddam, I think we are generally liked by most Iraqis. The Iraqis seem eager to move on to democracy for the most part. Main problem lies with the damaged infrastructure.

 

[ybbor]

 

[Vietcong]

A new government is in place, and elections were held.

thears nothing wrong with dicktators. y do ppl act like ther such a horid thing.. thay are still lagitamint goverments.

we shold have allied our self with saddam, or sponcered a coup*sp* and soponcer a new dictator *i think the minister of propreganda whold do good*
this way hes able to keep a tight hold of the nation, not leting it fall apart like it did after the invasion. it whold be like a second isreal, but muslim, and biger! with a dictartor who is able to go around and bust into suspected terorost homes and kill them rather ther are the terorist or not! all u need to do is brand them a tratior and thers a reasion!

 

[Godwynn]

thears nothing wrong with dicktators. y do ppl act like ther such a horid thing.. thay are still lagitamint goverments.

I hope you are being sarcastic.

 

[communism]

Your pessimism is very biased. The infrastructure isn't "falling apart": Parts of it are and parts of it aren't. Is unemployment really staggering? Since when can we not even control the Green Zone?

Actually from a brookings institute report, unemployment is down from 70% to somewhere inbetween 35-40%.

http://www.brookings.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf

Probably about the same proportion want the foriengers to get the hell out of Dodge.

Ask Iraqis how many want the Coalition to leave before their mission to train the Iraqis in the army and political and economic fields has ended, you'll get a very different result.

According to City Hall, Baghdad produces about 544 million gallons of water per day, some 370 million gallons short of its required amount. Some 55 percent of the water is lost through leakage in the pipes.

How's that the US fault? They fix the pipes, and the money get's siphoned off due to corruption, or, the infrastructure was so dilapidated under Saddam and since no one could raise their voice about this they kept quiet.

Entire sections of Baghdad aren't getting electricity and water, something that Saddam Hussein was able to at least nominally supply. Because of the constant attacks by idiot insurgents against repair work and already working power lines, water pumps, etc they make the situation even worse. But because security is so overwhelmed the situation is not getting better.

Excuse me, but this is fallicious, how many Police Stations can you count that have been overrun by insurgents since last December? And Saddam was only able to supply Baghdad with all it's electrical needs, by reducing large parts of the country to the amount of rationing Baghdad is experiencing today.

Because of the near state of anarchy conducting an accurate census is hard

Excuse me, if this is so how the hell could the conduct an election?

Just watch the news. There are constant incursions in the green zone. What distinguishes the green zone from the rest of Baghdad is that there are far fewer attacks. Several neighborhoods in Baghdad are totally lost to security forces. Iraqi police don’t even dare to enter areas like Al-Sadr city without support from APCs and armor.

Hahaha!!! As if APCs and armour is what you need in an insurgency, an insurgency is defeated by boots on the ground, not people in tin death traps driving around the city, well trained troops are the key.

Iraqi police have controlled Sadr city ever since the end of the uprising, the Mayor of Sadr city even emphasised cooperation with US officials to make sure money spent on infrastructure was done properly.

thears nothing wrong with dicktators. y do ppl act like ther such a horid thing.. thay are still lagitamint goverments.

You live in Ho Chi Mihn city, a reminder of what happens when America leaves, I rest my case.

Coup wouldn't of worked, one of his murderous sons would of been in charge.

People, Iraqi is facing difficult times right now, and I agree the Coalition hasn't done a good a job as it should of done, but to write it all off now without looking at the progress made in only 2 years, is tantamount to cowardice.

 

[Vietcong]

I hope you are being sarcastic.

do u honnestly think im being sarcastic??

plz explain whats wrong with despotism?

 

[Godwynn]

do u honnestly think im being sarcastic??

plz explain whats wrong with despotism?

A more reasonable question is, what is right about despotism?

All power concentrated into the hands of one man, who may or may not have the people's best interests in his heart. His power unrestricted, the military at his disposal, his people his 'playthings'.

 

[BasketCase]

Hey, if he does his evil deeds inside his own borders and doesn't bother other nations, some people are fine with that.

 

[Gelion]

"The worst for a nation is a bad king, when the best for a nation is a good king" said a Perisan King Dari(us) once. Of course since then many things have chaged, but despotism (or rule of one man) can be good or bad for the country, depending on the man. However Democracies work much better because the system of accountability and responsibility works best.

 

[Riesstiu IV]

Excuse me, but this is fallicious, how many Police Stations can you count that have been overrun by insurgents since last December? And Saddam was only able to supply Baghdad with all it's electrical needs, by reducing large parts of the country to the amount of rationing Baghdad is experiencing today.

I wasn’t even talking about police stations. You’re just putting words into my mouth in order to avoid the topic at hand. As far as I know, insurgents have never overrun Iraqi police stations but the police stations do suffer from frequent attacks. The simple truth is the infrastructure is worse then Saddam era and hasn’t improved significantly since the invasion. Although the coalition is attempting to fix it, it is failing spectacularly because security is not able to cope. Yes Saddam wasn’t able to provide Iraq with electricity 24/7 but it was still more than the coalition has been able to provide. Hell even Contractors with security detachments are afraid to leave there fortified installations to conduct their job and Unless we get cooperation from the population nothing will happen.

Excuse me, if this is so how the hell could the conduct an election?

Not even the same. To conduct a census one would actually have to send officials outside of safe havens and into all areas of Iraq (even regions were the governments hold on power is dubious at best). Having an election poll proved to safer because they could be conducted in fortified and secure buildings. Even then, more than 100 armed attacks on polling places took place, killing at least 44 people (including nine suicide bombers) across Iraq, including at least 20 in Baghdad. The IMIE (International Mission for Iraqi Elections) found it impossible to find monitors that would actually monitor the election from within the country. Rather the IMIE observers were based in Amman, Jordan and monitored the election from there.

Hahaha!!! As if APCs and armour is what you need in an insurgency, an insurgency is defeated by boots on the ground, not people in tin death traps driving around the city, well trained troops are the key.

Iraqi police have controlled Sadr city ever since the end of the uprising, the Mayor of Sadr city even emphasised cooperation with US officials to make sure money spent on infrastructure was done properly.

A mix of both is needed. Having a column of tanks and APCs driving through an urban environment without any infantry support is a bad idea and so is sending soldiers without tanks and APCs to penetrate barriers and tough positions.

“A temporary US base, Camp Marlboro, was set up at the Iraqi cigarette factory in Sadr City, headquartering the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment's 800 members plus an additional 120 military police of the 549th Military Police Company; all in an attempt to quell the violence of Sadr City. On October 10, the base was hit by three mortars launched from within the city, which saw the US beef up security and attach an additional 28 tanks and 14 Bradley Fighting Vehicles to the camp.”

People, Iraqi is facing difficult times right now, and I agree the Coalition hasn't done a good a job as it should of done, but to write it all off now without looking at the progress made in only 2 years, is tantamount to cowardice.

Spending hundreds of billions of dollars fighting a fruitless war that has caused thousands of deaths, ruined an economy, and sunk our country into an easily avoidable quagmire is tantamount to treason.

 

[BasketCase]

The simple truth is the infrastructure is worse then Saddam era and hasn’t improved significantly since the invasion.

I've heard a lot of testimony claiming the opposite. Some of it from people who were actually there.

 

[Godwynn]

I've heard a lot of testimony claiming the opposite. Some of it from people who were actually there.

I've heard both, I guess it all comes down to wether you go to CNN or FoxNews.

 

[BasketCase]

Uhhh....actually I watch both.....gets real confusing at times.....

(When Hannity & Colmes are on, the end effect is that you're basically getting CNN and FOX News at the same time, which is REALLY bad for the brain....)

 

[Jawz II]

do u honnestly think im being sarcastic??

plz explain whats wrong with despotism?

you know, actually in theory a dictatorship can be good, if the dictator is good and wise and not selfish, the problem with that is people like that arent power hungry to become dictators in the first place

and even if they do, power corrupts them, real fast

so therefor dictators suck, but you cant bomb people to democracy, that has to come gradually with education etc

when you do, you set them up for something worse



@ybbor: why wont right wing people realize that the current elected iraqi government has no power, whatsoever?

 

[Timko]

A more reasonable question is, what is right about despotism?

All power concentrated into the hands of one man, who may or may not have the people's best interests in his heart. His power unrestricted, the military at his disposal, his people his 'playthings'.

Does GWB have the Iraqi peoples' best interests in his heart? He is pretty much the despot of Iraq at the moment, I mean he can do what he likes, has the world's most powerful military at his disposal, and the Iraqi people didn't vote to have him there.

 

[BasketCase]

49% of Americans didn't vote to have Bush in the United States.

In all seriousness, Bush's "despotism" in Iraq has led to elections. A despot who gives up his throne is an improvement over a despot who refuses to (i.e. Saddam). This automatically places the Iraqis' best interests at heart.

 

[Rambuchan]

Gannon, probably more than anyone else in this thread you've come up with some solid figures. Although many would question them, I'm accepting them.

BUT - I would like to highlight the pre-invasion figures in red. This shows that NO PROGRESS or improvement has been made upon the quality of life for ordinary Iraqis, when compared to THE FIGURES BEFORE THE INVASION.

Many will say, 'yes but this all needs time'. Fair enough. But why does Iraq need to fall into Civil War and losing tens of thousands of its people to return to pre-invasion levels of living standards?

I've taken out the body count, insurgent rates etc, for the sake of space. However the figures as a whole still do not shout out the message that - IRAQ IS IN THE GRIPS OF CIVIL WAR.

THE STATE OF IRAQ: AN UPDATE (5/16/04)
Economic and Quality of Life Indicators

April 2003 (April 10 on) | August | December | April
Unemployment Rate (percentage)
60 | 55 | 45 | 45
Oil Production (millions of barrels/day; prewar rate: 2.8-3.0 mb/d)
0.1 | 1.5 | 2.3 | 2.4
Oil Exports (prewar rate: 2.1 mb/day)
0 | 0.6 | 1.5 | 1.6
Motor Fuel Availability (as percentage of estimated requirement)
20 | 60 | 60 | 95
Heating/Cooking Fuel Availability (as percentage of estimated requirement)
25 | 55 | 85 | 80
Electricity (in gigawatts; prewar: 4.4)
3.0 | 3.3 | 3.4 | 3.8
Telephone Service (as percentage of prewar level) <<< Here is an Improvement.
20 | 100 | 110 | 130
Schools Needing Repair
12,000 | 11,300 | 10,000 | 9,500
U.S. Aid Disbursed, Cumulative (total amount available is roughly $20 billion)
$100 million | $300 million | $900 million | $1.5 billion
Health Care Clinics Renovated, Cumulative (out of 600) <<< A woeful figure is it not?
0 | 0 | 10 | 52
Small Loans Disbursed, Cumulative (for population of 25 million) <<< This too is pitiful for a nation of 25million
0 | 100 | 1,000 | 2,000
Judges Vetted, Cumulative
0 | 100 | 300 | 860

Iraqi Morale and Views of the U.S.
April 2003 (April 10 on) | August | December | April
Iraqis Feeling Better Off Since War (percentage)
-- | 35 | 55 | 40
Iraqis Wanting U.S. Forces To Stay (percentage)
-- | 70 | 70 | 35

 

[Rambuchan]

In all seriousness, Bush's "despotism" in Iraq has led to elections. A despot who gives up his throne is an improvement over a despot who refuses to (i.e. Saddam). This automatically places the Iraqis' best interests at heart.

This is all true - but there are four questions which come flying off your statement:

a) at what expense to the Iraqi people and nation?

b) Did they ask for this invasion and a democracy being thrust upon them?

c) Whose 'best interests' were put first to justify the invasion?

d) Between American and Iraqi 'interests' in general - whose lot has improved due to the war?

Please don't let yourself get fooled by the spin so easily. You owe yourself better than that.

Whatever improvements are made in Iraq, the fact can never be changed that America is DICTATING DEMOCRACY to the Iraqi people.

 

[Jawz II]

49% of Americans didn't vote to have Bush in the United States.

not true, 49% of the people that voted didnt vote for him

but of all americans, id say it more like 60-70% that didnt vote for him

 

[Jawz II]

THE STATE OF IRAQ: AN UPDATE (5/16/04)
Security Indicators
April 2003 | August | December | April
U.S./Other Foreign Troops
150,000/23,000 | 139,000/22,000 | 122,000/24,500 | 137,000/25,000
Estimated Number of Insurgents
-- | 5,000 | 3,000-5,000 | 5,000
Estimated Number of Foreign Fighters/Jihadists
50 | 200 | 400 | 500
U.S. Troop Fatalities
22 | 36 | 40 | 131
Other Foreign Troop Fatalities
2 | 7 | 9 | 5
Foreign Civilian Fatalities
0 | 25 | 0 | 13
U.S. Helicopters Downed by Enemy
0 | 0 | 2 | 1
Insurgent Attacks on Oil Assets
2 | 3 | 9 | 4
Insurgents Detained/Killed
1,000 | 1,000 | 1,000 | 2,000
Iraq Noncombat Fatalities (from war)
250 | 40 | 115 | 400
Iraqi Police Officers Trained to Date (as percentage of goal; includes partial training)
0 | 1 | 5 | 19
Iraqi Soldiers Trained to Date (as percentage of goal)
0 | 0 | 1 | 6
Iraqi Security Personnel Trained to Date (all others; as percentage of goal)
0 | 2 | 70 | 90

Economic and Quality of Life Indicators
April 2003 (April 10 on) | August | December | April
Unemployment Rate (percentage)
60 | 55 | 45 | 45
Oil Production (millions of barrels/day; prewar rate: 2.8-3.0 mb/d)
0.1 | 1.5 | 2.3 | 2.4
Oil Exports (prewar rate: 2.1 mb/day)
0 | 0.6 | 1.5 | 1.6
Motor Fuel Availability (as percentage of estimated requirement)
20 | 60 | 60 | 95
Heating/Cooking Fuel Availability (as percentage of estimated requirement)
25 | 55 | 85 | 80
Electricity (in gigawatts; prewar: 4.4)
3.0 | 3.3 | 3.4 | 3.8
Telephone Service (as percentage of prewar level)
20 | 100 | 110 | 130
Schools Needing Repair
12,000 | 11,300 | 10,000 | 9,500
U.S. Aid Disbursed, Cumulative (total amount available is roughly $20 billion)
$100 million | $300 million | $900 million | $1.5 billion
Health Care Clinics Renovated, Cumulative (out of 600)
0 | 0 | 10 | 52
Small Loans Disbursed, Cumulative (for population of 25 million)
0 | 100 | 1,000 | 2,000
Judges Vetted, Cumulative
0 | 100 | 300 | 860

Iraqi Morale and Views of the U.S.
April 2003 (April 10 on) | August | December | April
Iraqis Feeling Better Off Since War (percentage)
-- | 35 | 55 | 40
Iraqis Wanting U.S. Forces To Stay (percentage)
-- | 70 | 70 | 35

you honestly see nothing wrong with these numbers?
did you or did you not notice they are all dated 2003??

as in before the insurgency, when the iraqis thought you were gonna leave?

i remember those times too, they were so happy to get rid of saddam and thought everything would be fine, that lasted how long? 4 months?

waste of time...