What Real Life Civilizations would have achieved one of the victory conditions?

[Ekmek]

Here's an interesting map based on US Census data which shows how German descendents are the largest ethnic group in a large portion of the USA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg

I love the big swath of people just saying they are "american" and it goes through the south no less. Like I would say to friends in the south driving around with US flags on their car "finally, the south admits that they lost the civil war."

 

[cdcuase]

Don't forget Alexander the Great. He made a go at a domination victory, but war weariness kicked in. Asoka was lucky, he was next on the chopping block

 

[hewhoknowsall]

Domination: Mongols and British came close but both failed because neither adopted state property so their Empire had high maintenance costs (and the foolish British adopted Mercantilism), and British had to give up colonies because they spent so much money on upgrading troops from riflemen to infantry. This is unlikely to happen without the major nations ICBMing eachother, and plus like half of the major world powers have a defensive pact and much of the other half has another.

Conquest: Germany tried but failed because they invaded Russia, who had a high population + Nationalism, and were cornered by Russia, USA and Britain. This is extremely unlikely to happen without the victims (or their allies) using ICBMS, which would cause Global Warming and fallout.

Cultural: If the EU were to make a permanant alliance then they'd probably win this one if you were to discount the fact that cities lose their cumulative culture when they are conquered, but as of now none have won (I don't think). This is virtually impossible to happen within just 41 years.

Space: None, and none likely will by 2050, but if they were to then best contenders would be USA followed by Russia and maybe China.



Time: Most likely option, probably either USA or China depending on how long USA keeps its supepower status for.

 

[mariogreymist]

Well hell, we already know its possible to bend space; that's what general relativity tells us. I was just saying it's impossible for an object to travel in a straight line from point A to point B faster than light. Whether we'll ever be able to manipulate space to travel through wormholes or whatnot.. thats another story.

I don't think we're a million years from being able to do anything in the sense that humanity should for the most part max its knowledge about all we can know long before then. The sum knowledge of humanity has grown exponentially over time, and it's really only started to hit a decent slope on the curve over the last couple hundred years. The next hundred years should provide more scientific discoveries and tech boosts than the last hundred. That's saying a LOT. My point is, I could see humanity making the bulk of all possible remaining scientific discoveries over a period more like thousands of years. If we don't destroy ourselves before then or nearly do so to the point where our infrastructure is gone.

Its just hard to imagine there being enough general science that its going to require anywhere near a million years for us to learn it all. This aside from the obvious fact that we'll never be able to explore the entire universe, which will forever provide opportunities for additional knowledge (other lifeforms, etc). But one should be able to ascertain the basics by what we see and observe from our little slice of the universe. Anyways, I think if we're ever able to travel through "wormholes", it'll be much sooner than a million years from now.

I think you vastly underestimate what is left that we don't understand. We don't even know what dark matter is. We know it exists in abundance, but have very little understanding of its nature. The most promising models for further understanding of the universe tend to involve more dimensions than we can perceive as a species. (more than 20 in some models) Should some form of string theory prove accurate, we are centuries from being able to perceive other dimensions, much less understand them. I look at the evolutionary difference between us and having the ability to manipulate space (which will almost certainly require a strong understanding of phenomena unobservable in our four dimensional space-time perception) is akin to the difference between our first predecessor that knew to run from a predator and the ability to build an ICBM. Hence, a million years seems pretty reasonable to me.

Of course, there is no way to be certain of this. Like you said, technology grows at an increasing rate (geometric would be more accurate than exponential, imo). For all we know, the LHC(the large hadron collider, not the lonely hearts club) will yield some fundamental understanding of the basic fabric of the universe which will allow us to bend space (knowing it happens is one thing...doing it ourselves quite another). We just can't know for certain.

 

[azbestor]

Stalin had plans for domination/conquest victory,but thankfully for most of us, Nazis had enough guts to go suicide and attack USSR day/or two before USSR attacked them.

Ironic, isn't it?

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

I think living in the shadow of the Soviet Union puts things in a slightly different perspective.

 

[Puck Nutty]

I think Italy pulled a cheesy AP victory ages ago.

 

[Conspirator]

America won space already.
Cultural America has New York, Boston, DC, Los Angelas. Coke, Pepsi, Ford, GM, ESPN, Nike, Hollywood.

We got culture already.

Edit: I hate to be that guy, but this thread has been beaten to death.

Cue all the America haters.

America doesn't have any culture besides Hollywood. Coke, Pepsi, Ford, GM, Nike... that isn't culture my friend. Go to Russia, Europe, the Middle East, China, Japan, India - there you will find culture.

 

[ilikepies]

China was put behind by a massive string of civic changes but is now starting to get back into the game, also trying for a Space race victory.

Too bad their leader doesn't have Spiritual.

 

[ilikepies]

China was put behind by a massive string of civic changes but is now starting to get back into the game, also trying for a Space race victory.

Too bad their leader doesn't have Spiritual.

EDIT: Oops sorry about this post.

 

[AlphaShard]

Love people like you. And the Palestinians who eat McDonald's and drink their Coca-Cola in between anti-USA chants. Coke is sold all over the entire world. Anymore, Coke is about as American as, well, apple pie.

You do know that Apple Pie is English right?

As for American Culture that would be the Wild West before commercialism shot it in the head.

 

[Countmonte8242]

I think you vastly underestimate what is left that we don't understand. We don't even know what dark matter is. We know it exists in abundance, but have very little understanding of its nature. The most promising models for further understanding of the universe tend to involve more dimensions than we can perceive as a species. (more than 20 in some models) Should some form of string theory prove accurate, we are centuries from being able to perceive other dimensions, much less understand them. I look at the evolutionary difference between us and having the ability to manipulate space (which will almost certainly require a strong understanding of phenomena unobservable in our four dimensional space-time perception) is akin to the difference between our first predecessor that knew to run from a predator and the ability to build an ICBM. Hence, a million years seems pretty reasonable to me.

Of course, there is no way to be certain of this. Like you said, technology grows at an increasing rate (geometric would be more accurate than exponential, imo). For all we know, the LHC(the large hadron collider, not the lonely hearts club) will yield some fundamental understanding of the basic fabric of the universe which will allow us to bend space (knowing it happens is one thing...doing it ourselves quite another). We just can't know for certain.

I'm not underestimating it. I know about all you listed (although the most widely accepted versions of string theory and quantum gravity only go up to 11 dimensions). What we don't know dwarfs we do know, thats for sure. I'm just saying that human scientific knowledge really only got rolling roughly 500 years ago (the scientific method, Newton, etc.), and it really only started gaining momentum in the last 150 years. If the pace keeps gaining speed (it should for a while at least as more of the world becomes industrialized and computing power continues to increase), we have no idea of the things humanity will know even 500 years from now. And many of the new things we learn will undoubtedly be used for techs that help us learn even faster, and so on.

Yeah there's no way of knowing, I'm just of the opinion that it might be closer to the order of 10000 years or so before we know roughly all the basic science we can rather than a million.

Btw, I read something interesting recently regarding some of what you said. This is just another of the many new theories of physics, and who knows which of em may be right for now, but this one sounds somewhat promising. A physicist came up with a new model for gravity that is somewhat of a mix between Newton's and Einstein's. Its being called Horava gravity, named after the guy. The promising / interesting thing about it is that other physicists have looked at it and said the new equations can explain the effects we see from "dark matter" and "dark energy." Ie, they wouldn't even exist under this theory, they'd just be effects of gravity. All just theory for now, though I find it interesting to follow this stuff.

 

[AfterShafter]

America doesn't have any culture besides Hollywood. Coke, Pepsi, Ford, GM, Nike... that isn't culture my friend. Go to Russia, Europe, the Middle East, China, Japan, India - there you will find culture.

While Civ doesn't count a lot of that as culture (which takes a lot of it out of the discussion of "Is the US winning a cultural victory?"), I think it's a bit of a stretch to say it's not. Sure it's not artsy-fartsy Impressionism or Romanticism or some such, but I don't think culture has to be specifically high brow. Look at things like the Coliseum in Rome, or bloodsports around the world... Appealed to the more base instincts of humanity, but it is undeniably a significant part of Roman culture. Coca Cola may not uplift the spirit of humanity like Wordsworth, but it does have a tremendous amount of mindshare and is one of the defining icons and tied to the general practices of a people. As in, not unlike the beer cultures of Germany and Britain or Belgium, or the wine culture of France. They are cultural icons, and a *huge* part of consumer culture (which is the reality of the western world these days). They are culture... It's just easy to turn our noses up at them.

 

[DrewTate]

You do know that Apple Pie is English right?

As for American Culture that would be the Wild West before commercialism shot it in the head.

In case you haven't heard it, "As American as apple pie" is a figure of speech.

And if people around the world, including the ones that want us wiped off the earth, eat McDonalds and drink Coke and Pepsi while watching movies made in Hollywood don't count, well then hell, nothing counts.

What does count? The Pantheon is awesome. I can't wait to see it in person some day. But if that counts, then the Statue of Liberty counts. Hollywood sign counts. Mount Rushmore counts. 10,000 lakes counts. Mississippi River counts.

Alright anti-Americans, let's hear it.

P.S. I mean hey. I can't wait to go to Europe. I had a trip planned that was cancelled at the last minute a couple years ago. Big history guy, too. And I appreciate other places. Nothin better than American exceptionalism.

Edit: Aftershafter......perfectly said.

 

[karadoc]

America won space already.
Cultural America has New York, Boston, DC, Los Angelas. Coke, Pepsi, Ford, GM, ESPN, Nike, Hollywood.

We got culture already.

Edit: I hate to be that guy, but this thread has been beaten to death.

Cue all the America haters.

Space victory is a race to Alpha Centauri. I'm not sure if you've played Civ 4 much, but if you have you might have noticed that the "apollo program" is just one step along the way.

As for culture. Those cities are pretty big, but in my opinion the only one that would be close to "Legendary" would be NYC. As for the corporations, even if those corporations you listed did give culture, it doesn't give a cultural advantage to the USA because they have already spread to most countries anyway. So America would be getting some good money from it, but no culture advantage over everyone else.

 

[azbestor]

I think living in the shadow of the Soviet Union puts things in a slightly different perspective.

I would say,that you know little about Polish and Russian history. In short:it wasn't until 18 century,till Russia became stronger.
If you are thinking about Soviets propaganda,then sorry,but not. You probably know it better,from school,most of us should.
According to them they were poor victims of WWII, with idiotic coward as dictator and few other things. And they had less tanks and everything,when Nazi's attacked them (it was ~20000 USSR's vs 3000 Nazi's),but they were worse (so worse,that Germans had to use AA guns to destroy lone KW's and IS's) and technologically useless (first ever swimming tanks and one of the fastest). And Soviets tanks burned,like matches (but had Diesel engines,which are less flammable,than gasoline ones,not to mention typical advantage of greater torque on heavy vehicle).
Shadow ? Bah. We are proud ones,that were only european nation to hold Kremlin for some considerable time.Nazis would run of fuel if they would try to grasp Moscow and Napoleon messed things seriously. Never mind it was one of the biggest mistakes we've made ever,but that's another story.

USA lovers: I think it's not about USA being cultural power or not (IMHO USA is one or ,at least, has potential for being one). Rather in typical USA way, you go and shout:every thing from USA is teh greatest,teh biggest and we are teh best.You even know how other nations should and would like to be ruled. This is not culture,guys.
Being proud of Ford isn't wisest one:when Jeremy Clarkson was riding one for Top Gear in the USA (it was prototype of Ford GT) he usually heard: nice Ferrari. That's Ford for you.

Last one (stupid,don't kill for it): how can you boast of USA culture,when you use someone else language? Think about that for a while

 

[mariogreymist]

Language is hardly a perfect indicator of culture. Russia is named for the word vikings used to describe the people there. English isn't a pure language either, meaning England (by a linguistic standard) is part german, part french, part roman etc. The only nation which even has a claim at purity in a linguistic sense would be Korea, whose language was deliberately constructed (along with esperanto, the only such language).

While I agree that my countrymen (and not universally by any means) tend to overstate the accomplishments of the USA, there are some good things we deserve credit for as a nation. Whether the good things outweigh the militarism, jingoism, and general global commercialism we have spawned is questionable; but the concept of a constitutional democracy was only an idea until a group of my forbearers told the most powerful man in the world to take his crown and put it where the sun don't shine (albeit considerably more politely). The assembly line, the airplane, the microprocessor, the internet...American inventions each.

I am an american, and I can criticize my nation's shortcomings. Those of you overseas should be careful though, lest you see another american invention coming your way: the cruise missile.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

I am an american, and I can criticize my nation's shortcomings. Those of you overseas should be careful though, lest you see another american invention coming your way: the cruise missile.

You don't have the guts to attack a strong country. Some 10000 folks got killed in the two wars you're fighting and you're riding war weariness. A small question: why did you attack Iraq and not Norh Korea? Perhaps because North Korea does have WMDs?

 

[karadoc]

I for one am kind of glad America isn't making military threats towards North Korea. That North Korean leader is like Montezuma or something. Better to just stick with trade sanctions until they get behind in tech (to continue the civ analogy). I don't think it's about showing "guts" or anything like that. It's more about trying not to get people killed.

But it is a valid criticism of the Bush government's stated reason to start the war in Iraq.

 

[ac106]

America doesn't have any culture besides Hollywood. Coke, Pepsi, Ford, GM, Nike... that isn't culture my friend. Go to Russia, Europe, the Middle East, China, Japan, India - there you will find culture.

That isn't "culture"? Civ 4 != real life. That IS modern culture.

So a group of Japanese kids get up on a saturday morning and get Starbucks for breakfast, then go buy a new Kanye West CD and new Levi jeans at a mall. Afterward, they head off to see a baseball game.

When the game is over on the their way home they stop into 7-11 and buy Coca-Cola and some snacks, which they eat while playing Xbox. After dinner at say KFC, they all go to see 2012 at the movies.


So what has more cultural influence, American food, TV, movies, music, clothes, slang, or say the Great Wall of China?