What's happening to EU?

[Kosez]

The EU Summit on financial plan for next eight years, or so, failed. UK didn't want to abolish rebate, France to lower subsidies and cash transfers for farmers. Netherlands wants to lower their input, all other want a bigger output, especially to their own budgets.
What do you think consensus should be like?

I am not a fan of mr. Blair, but I think Europe's future is not in farming. Currently 40% of EU budget goes to farmers. Mostly to French and Spanish. Now I don't have nothing against agriculture per se, but European agricultural policy is totally wrong by my opinion. If it was by me, I'd create absolutely free market on that level, I'd stop all subsidies for farmers and I'd prohibit any kind of chemistry in farming! That way Europe would save lots of money, we wouldn't have to drink polluted water and eat toxic food, and farmers would all keep their jobs, because of the poorer harvest.
It's a shame science and education are getting so little money and farmers take it all. Bloody shame!

 

[Scuffer]

I guess the farming thing is a hold-over from the early days of the EU, but's time for a change.The European dream is not about keeping farmers happy and rich.

Also, when will Juncker realise that no one give a stuff what he thinks, on account of Luxembourg having a population of less than half a million. The whole place would merit about 10 MPs, if it were part of Britain.

 

[Ancient Grudge]

French want English to have less money back but still want to continue to contribute LESS than we do. Silly people really.

Why do the English pay for Spanish fisherman to come and fish in our waters thus putting our fisherman out of business?

 

[allhailIndia]

The other day I thought that the French NON and the Dutch NEE votes wouldn't really affect the EU much....

But the events of the last few days have made me question the very future of the EU.

Are my doubts real? or exaggerated by the last few days?

 

[Marla_Singer]

The EU Summit on financial plan for next eight years, or so, failed. UK didn't want to abolish rebate, France to lower subsidies and cash transfers for farmers.

Actually, France has agreed to freeze agricultural subsidies. France accepted Juncker's plan. Only Blair refused it.


Get rid of both the rebate and CAP. But that will happen only once Merkel and Sarkozy will lead Germany and France.

I am not a fan of mr. Blair, but I think Europe's future is not in farming.

So you believe, like Blair, that the future of Europe is in a large free trade zone going from Greenland to Vladivostok ? How great Tony Blair is.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Why do the English pay for Spanish fisherman to come and fish in our waters thus putting our fisherman out of business?

You talk just as if subsidies were concerning only the Spanish fishermen and not the British ones... You poor victim...

The problem about fishing zones has nothing to do with the CAP, it has to do with the free market.

 

[Marla_Singer]

The other day I thought that the French NON and the Dutch NEE votes wouldn't really affect the EU much....

You fool.

But the events of the last few days have made me question the very future of the EU.

Are my doubts real? or exaggerated by the last few days?

They are very real. The EU has high chance to be changed into a mere free trade zone, and the euro to be abandonned. Let's see how things will go but I would certainly not say the single currency isn't threatened by recent events.

 

[Winner]

The EU Summit on financial plan for next eight years, or so, failed. UK didn't want to abolish rebate, France to lower subsidies and cash transfers for farmers. Netherlands wants to lower their input, all other want a bigger output, especially to their own budgets.
What do you think consensus should be like?

I am not a fan of mr. Blair, but I think Europe's future is not in farming. Currently 40% of EU budget goes to farmers. Mostly to French and Spanish. Now I don't have nothing against agriculture per se, but European agricultural policy is totally wrong by my opinion. If it was by me, I'd create absolutely free market on that level, I'd stop all subsidies for farmers and I'd prohibit any kind of chemistry in farming! That way Europe would save lots of money, we wouldn't have to drink polluted water and eat toxic food, and farmers would all keep their jobs, because of the poorer harvest.
It's a shame science and education are getting so little money and farmers take it all. Bloody shame!

Amen. Now, assemble a police force, equip it with heavy weaponry and lets explain it to the farmers themselves. Because they are ready to do anything (especially those in France) to prevent cutting of their main money source.

 

[Winner]

By the way, freezing the subsidies is not enough. I want it to be abolished, destroyed and buried in the past as a horrible experiment, which ruined Europe's future, killed hundreds of thousands people, devastated the economies of third world countries and almost killed the EU itself. Damn CAP, I hate it now more than ever

 

[Marla_Singer]

By the way, freezing the subsidies is not enough. I want it to be abolished, destroyed and buried in the past as a horrible experiment, which ruined Europe's future, killed hundreds of thousands people, devastated the economies of third world countries and almost killed the EU itself. Damn CAP, I hate it now more than ever

I've already answered to this. The CAP will be scraped once Merkel and Sarkozy will lead Germany and France. That means by 2007.

Though I agree with you that the CAP has no purpose anymore and that we should get rid of it, would you get angry if I tell you that you're a bit over-reacting in your critics towards it ?

 

[Steph]

Amen. Now, assemble a police force, equip it with heavy weaponry and lets explain it to the farmers themselves. Because they are ready to do anything (especially those in France) to prevent cutting of their main money source.

Yes, even vote against a European constitution where the CAP was included. Give them the hand, and they'll eat your arm up to your shoulder and don't even thank you for that.

 

[Scuffer]

Actually, France has agreed to freeze agricultural subsidies. France accepted Juncker's plan. Only Blair refused it.

I bet France leapt on that offer with both hands! 40% of the EU budget on argiculture, France claiming 20% of that. With a ludicrous 8% of the EU budget going to French farmers, I'm not surprised they were keen to keep it!

Oh, you meant we should be thrilled that France didn't push more argicultural subsidies? Oh, yes, I couldn't be more delighted.

Anyway, since the CAP is going in 2007, and the rebate with it, I guess we are flogging a dead horse here.

Other issues, I've got no problems with a free-trade zone, including for services and employment. I'd like to see the Euro succeed, not least because that would mean everyone is working together at last, and some form of constitution in place.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Yes, even vote against a European constitution where the CAP was included. Give them the hand, and they'll eat your arm up to your shoulder and don't even thank you for that.

I agree. And that's the main reason why I want the CAP to be scraped. I hate French corporatism, and farmers are among the best organized corporations in France with the workers from state-owned companies (SNCF, RATP, La Poste, etc...). Those corporatisms are immobilizing France. I know that my point of view sounds like a charicature, but we have now to admit that this becomes a real problem in France. Every political or social issues are completely messed up by the different corporatisms.

 

[Steph]

I agree. And that's the main reason why I want the CAP to be scraped. I hate French corporatism, and farmers are among the best organized corporations in France with the workers from state-owned companies (SNCF, RATP, La Poste, etc...). Those corporatisms are immobilizing France. I know that my point of view sounds like a charicature, but we have now to admit that this becomes a real problem in France. Every political or social issues are completely messed up by the different corporatisms.

Our problem is everyone is ready to make a lot of sacrifices, as long as it's "the other" who does it.
Unions are no longer playing their role in France. There's only one that I think is doing the job of a union, instead of just trying to have more and more power, endangering everything to do so.

Let's get rid of the farmers, and the workers from state-owned companies, and unions! Better! Let's get rid of the French!

Perhaps after that it will be possible to govern the country efficiently.

 

[Marla_Singer]

I bet France leapt on that offer with both hands! 40% of the EU budget on argiculture, France claiming 20% of that. With a ludicrous 8% of the EU budget going to French farmers, I'm not surprised they were keen to keep it!

Oh, you meant we should be thrilled that France didn't push more argicultural subsidies? Oh, yes, I couldn't be more delighted.

Scuffer, with Junker's plan, France pay 10 billion euros more for the EU. That makes more than £6 billion. Don't say that France was the big winner of that plan.

Let's face it, The CAP is living its last days and that's good for everyone. Unfortunately Chirac will like better to destroy the EU than to get rid of the CAP. He has begun his political carreer as minister of the Agriculture, and he still believe he's somewhere that minister. The CAP will be scraped only once Chirac will leave.

Other issues, I've got no problems with a free-trade zone, including for services and employment. I'd like to see the Euro succeed, not least because that would mean everyone is working together at last, and some form of constitution in place.

We need political integration Scuffer. I guess it's too early for the European people to realize this, we still believe that we can defend our model in our own little side, but denying realities don't make them wrong. I know we'll follow the path of political integration sooner or later, I like better sooner than later, but that's not really the point. The fact is that we have no other choices.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Our problem is everyone is ready to make a lot of sacrifices, as long as it's "the other" who does it.
Unions are no longer playing their role in France. There's only one that I think is doing the job of a union, instead of just trying to have more and more power, endangering everything to do so.

Let's get rid of the farmers, and the workers from state-owned companies, and unions! Better! Let's get rid of the French!

Perhaps after that it will be possible to govern the country efficiently.

You know, the Britain of the 70's was in about the same kind of situation than France is today. I sincerly dislike Thatcher for many things, however, I'm forced to accept that she has made the social climate healthier in Britain. This being said, I also believe she had over-reacted and I'm convinced we don't have to be that strong. However, we have to do something about it. Britain has changed, why France wouldn't ?

 

[Rik Meleet]

We need political integration Scuffer. I guess it's too early for the European people to realize this, we still believe that we can defend our model in our own little side, but denying realities don't make them wrong. I know we'll follow the path of political integration sooner or later, I like better sooner than later, but that's not really the point. The fact is that we have no other choices.

We have at least 1000 other choices as I see it. What makes you think there's only 1 choice ?
Can you back up your opinion with an explanation please ?

 

[Winner]

Now Marla, don't you think it is better to change France before trying to build political union?

The fears of smaller countries, that the political union is just a mere instrument for France to force the others to adopt its bad system to prevent "unfair" (in fact very fair) competition, are not a paranoia.

 

[Scuffer]

We need political integration Scuffer. I guess it's too early for the European people to realize this, we still believe that we can defend our model in our own little side, but denying realities don't make them wrong. I know we'll follow the path of political integration sooner or later, I like better sooner than later, but that's not really the point. The fact is that we have no other choices.

I do agree with you, but I don't think it can be achieved in a prescriptive way. Trying to find a single piece of common ground that is acceptable to all will be impossible. There is always some compromise deal going on in all EU negoiations, but that defeats the whole point of integration. Any effort to say - "We will integrate in this way, and to this manner" is doomed to failure

I suppose it is easy for us to say that competing national interests prevent progress, but even if they were completely ignored, the underlying cultural differences between countries would remain. The differences in outlook between some countries is huge, once you scrape back the polical boilerplate about peace and prosperity for all.

It isn't helped by the dissociation that many feel from the whole process. I'm fairly remote from the Welsh assembly, even further from 10 Downing Street. The EU as a political institution could scarcely be more remote, and more importantly, aloof from my life. And I'm pro-Europe and take an interest!

I'm not especially optimistic, but disasters are catalysts for change. Maybe this month will have shaken enough heads to realise the need to convince the people of Europe, rather than each other, that the European project is actually worth it.

 

[Marla_Singer]

We have at least 1000 other choices as I see it. What makes you think there's only 1 choice ?
Can you back up your opinion with an explanation please ?

Well, it's easy. The Europe of the 21st century is becomming more and more like the South America of the 20th century. Our countries are rather insignificant and we are dependent on a bigger power, as much commercially, than politically speaking (both are linked anyway). As such, we have only two choices : either we defend our common interests together, or we all fight against the other European countries in order to have the best deal with the guys which really count (US, China, etc..).

The fact is that the second solution is necessarily detrimental to European countries. I will use as an example South America. Here's how it happens : the US needs aluminium (for instance). Argentina jumps and propose a deal to the US. Chile, as a reaction, propose another deal which is necessarily better for the US than the Argentina's deal. Then Peru, watching the situation, propose an even better deal for the US in order to win the market. Finally, Paraguay won a mediocre deal where they still have a client but has to sell its aluminium very cheap. Argentina, Peru and Chile doesn't have anything.

It's obvious that bilateral relations between a major power and smaller countries are in the advantage of the major power, and the example above is just here to demonstrate it. Paraguay isn't really the winner in here, the US are. If all South American nations would have proposed one deal to the US, it would have been better for all of them, Paraguay included.

That's the reason why we will follow the path of political integration before 2100. Because it's in our direct interests to do so. The big wondering is about how much time we will need to realize this.



This being said, there's another reason why I wish it. I'm firm in my belief that a European Union would stabilize the world order. I don't believe a European Union sticking into a neutral policy can be good. Actually, I believe this is extremely selfish. I'm truely irritated to hear the mainstream European opinion that it's not our business if there's a genocide in Rwanda. However, of course, you'll say that you, as a Dutch guy, won't be affected by this and you don't care in the end. But I'm still free to think in a less selfish way than you do. And I say this with all my respect.

Actually, I hardly see why Europeans are fearing political integration. It seems just as irrational to me as the reasons why Bush has been re-elected in 2004, and it's as much as irrational as the fact the Hamas is popular in Palestine. Those things have all something in common, the fear of the unknown which leads into the feeling we are more comfortable between us, in our own side.