What's wrong with US national debt?

No on pretty much any of those points, if the interest rates increase it wouldn't affect the current debt, besides if they do go up that means the economy is improving so debt to GDP ratio would be decreasing, it wouldn't matter.

The US is still by far the most stable currency except maybe the British pound, there's no significant risk of the Dollar being "dumped" as the reserve currency, if it happens at all it would be a long transition and the Eurozone would have to stabilize first. We're dangerously close to fiscal contraction anyway so this irrational fear of inflation and devaluing currency completely dumbfounds me.

This Chinese "firesale" is complete nonsense, even if such a thing were legal or had any impact if it is it would be literally the dumbest move in international history for the Chinese to tank the US economy. The whole global economy would take practically equal hits from a collapse of the largest consumer base in the world, the Chinese don't have a middle class to replace the 250+ million people no longer buying their goods, plus the European economy would take a just as hard hit from the many international corporations based in the US suddenly being bankrupt. It would effectively end the industrial world at least for a couple decades. The simple fact is everyone is too tied together now.

And the last point is probably the biggest failing of any argument of anyone who uses the debt as a political tool: it's not relevant ever, it doesn't need to be paid off, it's not a problem even though the numbers look big our GDP is also huge.

The point of the Chinese dumping of the debt would be to destroy their rivals in the world. The industrialized world goes into economic meltdown and China loses the market to sell its cheaply made junk. It's economy is greatly damaged but the rest of the world is destroyed. Its chess not checkers. Now this is unfathomable to us but does it make sense to China? Now this might be in the crazy conspiracy category of evil world domination :)

The last point you make I am having trouble understanding. What do you mean that the debt need not ever be paid off? I am having trouble wrapping my brain around that.
 
KmDubya said:
The point of the Chinese dumping of the debt would be to destroy their rivals in the world. The industrialized world goes into economic meltdown and China loses the market to sell its cheaply made junk. It's economy is greatly damaged but the rest of the world is destroyed. Its chess not checkers. Now this is unfathomable to us but does it make sense to China? Now this might be in the crazy conspiracy category of evil world domination
How does selling US debt cause the world economy to meltdown?

KmDubya said:
The last point you make I am having trouble understanding. What do you mean that the debt need not ever be paid off? I am having trouble wrapping my brain around that.
It doesn't. The US rolls its debt over all the time.
 
The fact that governments actually take on debt and do not print money to fill in budget shortages is quite baffling. Basically, governments serve as useful idiots for banks. Those who already have the money do not have to do anything.
 
The point of the Chinese dumping of the debt would be to destroy their rivals in the world. The industrialized world goes into economic meltdown and China loses the market to sell its cheaply made junk. It's economy is greatly damaged but the rest of the world is destroyed. Its chess not checkers. Now this is unfathomable to us but does it make sense to China? Now this might be in the crazy conspiracy category of evil world domination :)

The last point you make I am having trouble understanding. What do you mean that the debt need not ever be paid off? I am having trouble wrapping my brain around that.
China can only accomplish that by the Chinese Communist Part committing suicide on behalf of China's future as a merely very realtive winner, in a world of huge losers.

It's simply not going to do that, if it has ANY choice in the matter. The CCP wants to be rich and in charge. It's just not going to be, if it it pulls the world economy down on everybody's head, it's own included.

The strategy is only very, very hypothetically plausible, and in reality it's nowhere near an option. If it occurs, it's going to be an unintended accident.
 
How does selling US debt cause the world economy to meltdown?


It doesn't. The US rolls its debt over all the time.

Right, something that is a bit tough to realize.
The $15 trillion never needs to be repaid. But, teeny $10k bonds need to constantly be repaid after 3 mos, 1, 3, 5, 10, and 30 years. And, as long as the debt is considered secure, there seem to always been lenders.

That's what creates the carrying cost of the debt and its danger. If you need to borrow at 6% to pay back a bond that was for 3%, then the carrying costs of the debt will rise.

In general, if the relative levels of the carrying costs of the debt fall, it's a good thing. You never need to pay off the full debt, all at once, but the carrying costs are a line item in the budget and it's nicer if it's never an important line item.
 
Now I am not an economist by any stretch, just a simple guy. The numbers I've heard and can comprehend are from John Stossel - roughly that the US earns $24K a year, spends $37K a year and owes $179K on its credit card.


First, John Stossel is a political hack. He has zero integrity and only parrots what he has been told to sell.

Second, the US, to follow your example, earns $140k a year, spends $37k a year, and borrows the rest at 0% interest. To say that in any sense we cannot afford what we are spending is not just ultimate political hackery, but also a failure to comprehend grade school arithmetic.


That said this is how I understand the situation. The US has borrowed (owes?) roughly $17 trillion. This does not include unfunded future liabilities such as social security. The interest on the debt payments are historically low due to fiscal policies that print large quantities of federal reserve notes in order to service the debt. At some point interest rates will rise and the debt payment will grow substantially.


Why will interest rates rise?


If interest rates do not rise the constant flood of cheap dollars will devalue the currency and effectively steal value from everyone who holds dollars. If in response to the devaluation of the dollar the world chooses a new reserve currency the US would be in real difficulty.


Why will it devalue the currency? And why would that be bad?



If a foreign power (China) had a fire sale of all its US debt, their economy would be hurt but the US would be devastated. If China says give us Taiwan or else we flush the debt what could the US do except capitulate? Being hostage to someone else can't be a good thing.


Why would China do something which would have no effect on the United States, but cost China $1trillion in lost wealth?


At some point the debt has to be paid off right? If not by the baby boomers who ran up the tab but by their children and grandchildren.

To me it is a moral issue, paying your own way is the way it should be, not running a tab and then welching on it.


So your parents shouldn't borrow to buy the house you grow up in, the car that takes you to school, the school you learn in which allows you to earn an income, or anything else, because someday you might have to repay some tiny portion of it?


I love it when rightwingers in the US whimper and whine about the debt. Since the US would not have any debt if those exactly the same rightwingers had not created the debt.

Here's the trick: If you are really that opposed to debt, then you would be voting for the least conservative person in every election you are eligible to vote in. If you are voting conservative, then you have specifically, deliberately, and with full knowledge of the consequences of your actions, acted to destroy the US with debt.
 
The liberals aren't much better either. The President's home state is a bastion of your alternative's triumph.
 
Can you answer one of these two prompts:

1) The literal financial mechanisms that makes your concerns real
or
2) An honest self assessment of a) how strongly you believe in what you say (like "I think I'm vaguely right." or "I know 110%" etc) and b) why you believe what you believe.

I'd prefer the first but I'll take the latter, since it's a lot more an honest answer than anything involving saddles and future generations. Unfortunately the other folks with your take backed out of the thread.

When the government owes money it needs to pay interest on that debt. The more the government has to spend on this expense, the less money is available for other things. This is a bad thing if you think interest payments have less social value than either spending the money on other things, or lowering taxes, or both of those things. By engaging in deficit spending the current government is imposing restrictions on how future governments will be able to allocate resources, and also may be crowding out private investment which will make the future poorer. Also, a very large national debt can create fears that the government might default, which forces people to take steps to hedge against this risk.
 
:lol: I hadn't thought of it that way. I hope so....

It gets even more offensive the more you think of it this way. Think about it. They're abusing the fact that the public and private debt are similar in name to try and fool you -- to make an assault upon your intelligence -- with the ultimate end of getting you to support them.

If you don't put a lot of thought into it, what they're saying makes a lot of sense and you might just rally behind them. However, when you actually think about what they say and do a little bit of fact-checking (which any responsible, political person ought to...) then you'll find that the debt is really a non-issue. We've got people charging the gates down to let us hold a dollar. You'll see an actual debt crisis happen when other nations and private citizens decide that America's too risky to lend money to.
 
When the government owes money it needs to pay interest on that debt. The more the government has to spend on this expense, the less money is available for other things. This is a bad thing if you think interest payments have less social value than either spending the money on other things, or lowering taxes, or both of those things. By engaging in deficit spending the current government is imposing restrictions on how future governments will be able to allocate resources, and also may be crowding out private investment which will make the future poorer. Also, a very large national debt can create fears that the government might default, which forces people to take steps to hedge against this risk.

So you'd be perfectly happy not being able to buy treasury bonds? They're the safest investment! You seem to forget that the interest paid is to the buyer.

Someone you know probably owns some of the nation's debt -- and will be better off for it.

EDIT: This forum really ought to merge subsequent posts.
 
So you'd be perfectly happy not being able to buy treasury bonds? They're the safest investment! You seem to forget that the interest paid is to the buyer.

Someone you know probably owns some of the nation's debt -- and will be better off for it.

EDIT: This forum really ought to merge subsequent posts.

Huh? I never said it was necessary to pay off the entire national debt. Allowing people to reduce risk is certainly a useful function of treasury bonds but the relevant issue here is the marginal benefit of increasing the size of the national debt, not the aggregate benefit of having a national debt.
 
It gets even more offensive the more you think of it this way. Think about it. They're abusing the fact that the public and private debt are similar in name to try and fool you -- to make an assault upon your intelligence -- with the ultimate end of getting you to support them.
See, I'm not so sure they have any idea themselves. I think they actually believe that money works the way they do. In fact, I think politicians and many economists have been misunderstanding money for a long long time.
 
When the government owes money it needs to pay interest on that debt. The more the government has to spend on this expense, the less money is available for other things. This is a bad thing if you think interest payments have less social value than either spending the money on other things, or lowering taxes, or both of those things. By engaging in deficit spending the current government is imposing restrictions on how future governments will be able to allocate resources, and also may be crowding out private investment which will make the future poorer. Also, a very large national debt can create fears that the government might default, which forces people to take steps to hedge against this risk.
Ahah! Good news, the crux of your argument hinges on the idea that the US government can run out of money. The US government has infinite money and its money is always good so long as there's a reason to demand it. Taxes make every US citizen prefer dollars. Indeed, the government is always and only borrowing in the money it prints, and not coincidentally an exactly equal amount to what it prints, thus growing the bond supply rather than the cash supply even though it's all fairly arbitrary.

Your secondary argument is private sector crowding out.
Now I am not an economist by any stretch, just a simple guy. The numbers I've heard and can comprehend are from John Stossel - roughly that the US earns $24K a year, spends $37K a year and owes $179K on its credit card.

That said this is how I understand the situation. The US has borrowed (owes?) roughly $17 trillion. This does not include unfunded future liabilities such as social security. The interest on the debt payments are historically low due to fiscal policies that print large quantities of federal reserve notes in order to service the debt. At some point interest rates will rise and the debt payment will grow substantially.

If interest rates do not rise the constant flood of cheap dollars will devalue the currency and effectively steal value from everyone who holds dollars. If in response to the devaluation of the dollar the world chooses a new reserve currency the US would be in real difficulty.

If a foreign power (China) had a fire sale of all its US debt, their economy would be hurt but the US would be devastated. If China says give us Taiwan or else we flush the debt what could the US do except capitulate? Being hostage to someone else can't be a good thing.

At some point the debt has to be paid off right? If not by the baby boomers who ran up the tab but by their children and grandchildren.

To me it is a moral issue, paying your own way is the way it should be, not running a tab and then welching on it.
Let me ask you did you go down this path of analysis (not unreasonable btw)
"The debt is like a credit card
I have a credit card.
If I did that with a credit card that would be dishonorable and as it burdens others immoral.
Therefore debt like this is immoral."

Your other points are that you are 1) arguing that low interest rates are creating too many new dollars that will push down our dollar's exchange rate power and/or will drive up domestic consumer prices. 2) That if China sold all of its bonds to someone else, the US would get the shaft. Am I correct in understanding all three of your points?

Are you able to explain how they work?
For the first: if the credit card analogy holds, and the government has an income and expenses and and expense account i.e. a bank, who is that bank and where do they get their money? Aka who is this economic power above the government and where do they derive their economic power. (Why doesn't our government have their power?)

For the second: how does low interest rates create new dollars? Who is creating those dollars? How are they doing it? And for part b, was your complaint about inflation (prices) or about currency devaluation (exchange rates)?

For the third: how does China "flush the debt". Do they sell it on the open market? How does that harm the US? Are they demanding someone return their principle to them? If so, who or what does that process, how might that be possible (legally and physically) and what's the risk to the US?
 
What would the US economy look like with sustained (i.e. increasing to the size of the economy) fiscal contraction? Hint, 2000 and 2007 were after short periods of brief domestic fiscal contraction.


Paying off the debt does not equal fiscal contraction.
 
Paying off the debt does not equal fiscal contraction.

By definition, if you are taxing more than you are spending, then you are fiscally contracting.

That is the definition.
 
Ahah! Good news, the crux of your argument hinges on the idea that the US government can run out of money. The US government has infinite money and its money is always good so long as there's a reason to demand it. Taxes make every US citizen prefer dollars. Indeed, the government is always and only borrowing in the money it prints, and not coincidentally an exactly equal amount to what it prints, thus growing the bond supply rather than the cash supply even though it's all fairly arbitrary.

Your secondary argument is private sector crowding out.

The crux of my argument is that resources are finite. The fact that nominal spending is unlimited doesn't change this. The government won't "run out of money" but if it is in debt it will be forced to make payments to bondholders. These aren't payments that the government would choose to make if there was no debt and the government had complete flexibility of how it would allocate its resources.
 
Let me ask you did you go down this path of analysis (not unreasonable btw)
"The debt is like a credit card
I have a credit card.
If I did that with a credit card that would be dishonorable and as it burdens others immoral.
Therefore debt like this is immoral."

Your other points are that you are 1) arguing that low interest rates are creating too many new dollars that will push down our dollar's exchange rate power and/or will drive up domestic consumer prices. 2) That if China sold all of its bonds to someone else, the US would get the shaft. Am I correct in understanding all three of your points?

Are you able to explain how they work?
For the first: if the credit card analogy holds, and the government has an income and expenses and and expense account i.e. a bank, who is that bank and where do they get their money? Aka who is this economic power above the government and where do they derive their economic power. (Why doesn't our government have their power?)

For the second: how does low interest rates create new dollars? Who is creating those dollars? How are they doing it? And for part b, was your complaint about inflation (prices) or about currency devaluation (exchange rates)?

For the third: how does China "flush the debt". Do they sell it on the open market? How does that harm the US? Are they demanding someone return their principle to them? If so, who or what does that process, how might that be possible (legally and physically) and what's the risk to the US?

Your credit card analogy is fairly accurate in my understanding (or misunderstanding as the case might be) of the national debt.

In terms that I can understand here is an example of how I think it goes: China manufactures goods that are sold to American businesses. China is paid in dollars. China uses the dollars to buy bonds from the US Govt. The US Govt. pays interest on the bonds. The bonds are also sold to anyone else in the world who wants to buy them. There is not really any other option for dollars, no real competition as the US is still the safest place to reinvest. The US Govt's access to the bond funds fuels spending and the US economy in general. The cycle repeats and feeds upon its own success.

The fear to me is what happens if the above cycle stops? To me it is like flipping houses - I buy a house and sell it to Joe and make 10%, Joe sells it to Bill and makes 10%, and on and on. Everyone makes money on the action even though nothing of value has been made or added until finally someone realizes that the house is not worth that much and won't buy it. This leaves the last guy holding the bag and he goes down.

I believe the low interest rate is bad in that it discourages savings and responsibility and promotes leaving beyond your means. I personally pay cash for everything I own and am debt free. My land and farms were paid in cash as will my house when it is constructed next year. This to me is security, no matter what happens I have real stuff. If instead I borrowed I'd be living large but if anything went wrong I'd be overextended and crashing. I get penalized by the tax code and inflation for being what I consider to be fiscally responsible. If I borrowed I could pay off today's debts tomorrow with dollars that are worth less than they are today.

The dollars are being created at the Fed and the banking system with the quantitative easing policies. This flow of cheap dollars fuels the rise in the market even though nothing real is actually being produced, just the action on the prices. When this stops there will be consequences.

With China and the debt what happens if they want to be paid back the principle instead of just the interest? Is that possible? If it were to occur where would the dollars come from?

Please tell me where I am off base in my understanding as this is a subject I am woefully ignorant in.
 
Your credit card analogy is fairly accurate in my understanding (or misunderstanding as the case might be) of the national debt.

In terms that I can understand here is an example of how I think it goes: China manufactures goods that are sold to American businesses. China is paid in dollars. China uses the dollars to buy bonds from the US Govt. The US Govt. pays interest on the bonds. The bonds are also sold to anyone else in the world who wants to buy them. There is not really any other option for dollars, no real competition as the US is still the safest place to reinvest. The US Govt's access to the bond funds fuels spending and the US economy in general. The cycle repeats and feeds upon its own success.


The reason that it is able to feed on that success is that there are real things backing those bonds.


The fear to me is what happens if the above cycle stops? To me it is like flipping houses - I buy a house and sell it to Joe and make 10%, Joe sells it to Bill and makes 10%, and on and on. Everyone makes money on the action even though nothing of value has been made or added until finally someone realizes that the house is not worth that much and won't buy it. This leaves the last guy holding the bag and he goes down.


It's really not like that though. It is not a speculative bubble. The US economy is real, and it is huge. It may be underperforming what it could do, But that underperforming is a fairly small percentage of the total activity. It is not like buying and selling the same thing over and over again for an ever higher price.

The US imports, and pays for that in dollars. The exporters we buy from use a portion of those dollars to buy US bonds. But the bonds and the trade deficit aren't really related. The trade deficit is mainly about the fact that US companies don't want to invest in the US because they don't want to pay high wages, and so the nation has a harder time competing in international markets. The budget deficit is mainly about the US government does not want to tax, nor does it want US companies to invest. So the economy remains weak and the population remains more dependent on the government for subsistence.

But the economy does keep chugging along. And it does keep creating all the wealth the US actually needs to consume as it does and pay the debts. We are just allocating it poorly because of politics. The rate at which foreigners are willing to buy our bonds remains strong, because they can see that all of our problems are political, and not economic. And so they don't really worry too much about it.


I believe the low interest rate is bad in that it discourages savings and responsibility and promotes leaving beyond your means. I personally pay cash for everything I own and am debt free. My land and farms were paid in cash as will my house when it is constructed next year. This to me is security, no matter what happens I have real stuff. If instead I borrowed I'd be living large but if anything went wrong I'd be overextended and crashing. I get penalized by the tax code and inflation for being what I consider to be fiscally responsible. If I borrowed I could pay off today's debts tomorrow with dollars that are worth less than they are today.


Interest rates are the cost of capital. When you borrow, you pay beck the principle, plus the interest. High interest means the cost of capital is high. The cost of borrowing is high. What that means is that less borrowing will take place, and those borrowers who do borrow will be under much more burden and more likely to default on their debts. Borrowing fuels economic expansion. Most borrowing is business or durables, not consumption. If you raise the costs of borrowing, you reduce the amount of borrowing, and this causes the economy to be weaker. So there is less real wealth being created to fund how much we consume. And so we have to consume less.

What that does is means that the government debt will go up. Because cutting spending never really works, and we will spend more money on interest on the debt. This gives a huge windfall to those who lend money, and does it by making those who borrow money much worse off. It is a huge transfer of wealth from borrowers to savers. From the poor to the rich.

But it won't increase savings to raise interest rates. One of the things that caused the housing bubble is that Americans, the majority of them now, are too poor to save. By keeping the economy weak and wages low, savings are caused to be low. You cannot increase savings by weakening the economy.


The dollars are being created at the Fed and the banking system with the quantitative easing policies. This flow of cheap dollars fuels the rise in the market even though nothing real is actually being produced, just the action on the prices. When this stops there will be consequences.


Quantitative easing is the wrong tool to fix what is wrong with the US economy. If you want less debt in the long run, then it is necessary to fix the economy first. End high unemployment and low wages first. After you have done that, reducing government debt is easy. Before you have done that, reducing government debt is the next thing to impossible. We are using QE rather than sound economic principles, because Congress refuses to act responsibly, and keeps insisting that the debt now is the problem. But if we used neither, then the economy gets a lot worse, and debt gets a lot worse.

If you stop QE, then government deficits will go up.



With China and the debt what happens if they want to be paid back the principle instead of just the interest? Is that possible? If it were to occur where would the dollars come from?


Not possible. There is no legal basis for them to make that demand. We would simply ignore it. The bonds are paid when the bonds are due, and not before.


Please tell me where I am off base in my understanding as this is a subject I am woefully ignorant in.
 
With China and the debt what happens if they want to be paid back the principle instead of just the interest? Is that possible? If it were to occur where would the dollars come from?

The debt is not just one big giant debt, like a mortgage (which cannot just be 'called in' like a mafia marker). It's tons of tiny debts that are constantly coming to term. And, every day, there are sales of new tiny debt papers. Yeah, the gov't is in deficit, so they sell new debt papers now to pay off the principle due on previous debts. It's not a great policy, we all know it's not ideal. But, it's just not as bad as people think.
 
Cutlass and El Mach, thanks for the information. I am still ignorant but at least much less sure of my beliefs that are not correct. :)
 
Top Bottom