When does AI usually reach victory condition on Deity?

[ImAPaladin]

Yesterday I managed to win my first Deity game, via Science on Archipelago, with Babylon, on standard size, speed and settings.
Prior to this game, I did some research and found that games on Deity usually end on turn 260~270(depending the settings I reckon).
Therefore when I was close to reaching victory around turn 230 or so, I was feeling pretty safe.
THEN SUDDENLY, Korea started completing all these ship parts. Needlessly to say I was like 'WTF???' I was over 20% above the average science value.
I somehow managed to avoid war by not opening borders to close civs after certain point, but Korea was even involved in some wars, and still managed to almost win.
I spawned on a pretty small island with not much land nearby so I could only settle 2 additional cities for a total of 3, but I thought I was doing well because I kept these string of RAs going pretty much the entire game.
I managed to barely win on turn 242; Korea was 1 Booster away from completing the Spacesihp.
Is this how it's supposed to be after certain patch? or was it because it was on Archipelago?

Technically second game on Deity...tried the same thing on Pangea before and got my ass kicked when 3 close civs declared war on me. Played 1 game on King(Science after pretty much killing everyone lol), and 1 game on Immortal(Domination), so I don't even have a general idea of how things should be on peaceful games at the current state of the game.

I read it's possible to win a science victory around turn 210(before a past patch though, not sure if it's possible to win even faster or nerfed things.), so is it plausible that AI can win even faster than turn 240 or so?

 

[vexing]

on deity the AI is only limited by how much room they have. if you play a pangea with low sea level they can finish much sooner than an archipelago game, especially if one AI like greece or france becomes runaway.

sub 200 science is player doable.

 

[ImAPaladin]

Thank you for the reply.

I see. This is unrelated to the topic, but is it even possible to win in that kind of situation?
I mean, a peaceful victory that is; not 'kill most threatening civs and then go for science/culture win' kind of victory.
On Pangea, you have to worry more about AIs, especially if civs like Aztecs spawn near you(I heard some civs are more aggressive and declare war anyway even if you don't open borders?). On top of that, they finish even faster? lol

I watched a few of Maddjinn's games, namely his OCC culture victory as Korea on Pangea, he did play well but I gotta say, he only managed to live because he used The Give 'Everything' exploit(well, seems like an exploit to me).
That's probably a bad example because he was trying something unique, but my point is, how do you fend off the neighboring AIs and still manage to win a peaceful cultural/science victory on Pangea?
I tried playing on Pangea on Deity as Babylon, but every neighboring civv declared war on me and kept bothering me too much. First Washington who was like 15 tiles away from me decided to declare war on me on turn 30 or so and bring all its army to me. And then Aztecs decide to come and attack my second city which is pretty vulnerable(it wasn't even close to them) -_-.

Is peaceful science or culture victory while only defending not possible on Pangea on Deity?(especially with little sea, where AI can expand a lot as you said)?

Oh, on standard settings of course...with no "abuses" or "perfect" start locations.

BTW, I only watched some of his games after the June 2011 patch, because I think much of the game changed after that one(not sure). If you know of a good playthrough or strategy guide of this sort of game, could you point me to one? Tried looking for some that are up-to-date but no luck.

Sorry if I'm asking too many things... I like this game and want to get to know more of it^^

EDIT: well I did find some 'fast science victory on Pangea, Deity threads' but they were back in early 2011, which I believe are outdated?
Also, in my case I stated earlier, the only way to deal with that sort of situation is to muster enough military and go to their border and threaten their cities to get a peace treaty, isn't it? Since they won't go for peace if all I do is defend.
or do I just stay in war and keep defending? What if they get even more powerful later, or drop a nuke on me? lol
So this brings back my question...is this just not viable on Deity? It's only possible if you get 'lucky' and not get aggressive Civs like Aztecs or France near you? Even then, is it still possible?

TLDR: Is it possible to win a peaceful victory on Pangea on Deity in any sort of situation? I know it's the highest difficulty but...seems like there's too little leeway.

 

[Tabarnak]

You could try to roll a pangea map and land on a sort of big peninsula with mountains and cs blocking the only way to rest of land.

 

[JeanBaptiste]

Managed a standard deity occ science victory with Korea on pangea, finish time ca 230-240. My starting position was in the center of the map with Germany as one of my neighbors. The only tweak in the settings was world age, set to 3 billion years. More hills makes it easier to defend.

The early wars are the most difficult but if you can manage these then you should have a tech advantage which makes your units a lot stronger later on. Especially Korea with the Hwacha. Diplomacy is also really important. In this case I'd suggest to DoF all your neighbors, all the time, as much as possible. One can handle one war on occ deity, maybe two but three is almost impossible.

In certain aspects science occ is easier than having 2-3 cities. You are more focused on your end goals and don't have to invest too much in military (since your capital is naturally stronger than other cities). The AIs won't care about you as well since you never expanded.

 

[ImAPaladin]

Thanks for the replies!

It depends on the game I guess, but I watched Maddjinn's playthrough of OCC as Korea going for cultural victory, and he had to deal with wars regularly throughout the game(Germany spawned near him and later the Aztecs extended their borders to his). The only way for him to get out of some of them was to use the 'give everything' trick. It was a good game, and I learned a few things from it but I'd consider that abusing the AI.

Jean, you didn't have to use this 'trick' to get out of any wars? If you didn't, how did you deal with it? or you somehow managed to stay out of war?

 

[DevilHell]

Well it's almost impossible what you try, but the AI offers big peace treaties JUST defending, if you show a great army
I think the best approach is to get bombers ASAP, with them, you don't really need anything else
If you see a neighbour of yours getting stronger and hostile you can pay another AI(s) to declare war on him
If he completes the manhattan project, though you should have by then at least apollo program, you should hurry to beat his cities.. And if you can, nuke them, that destroys the nukes and planes in the cities I think

 

[snarzberry]

I mean, a peaceful victory that is; not 'kill most threatening civs and then go for science/culture win' kind of victory.
On Pangea, you have to worry more about AIs,

... my point is, how do you fend off the neighboring AIs and still manage to win a peaceful cultural/science victory on Pangea?

Is peaceful science or culture victory while only defending not possible on Pangea on Deity?(especially with little sea, where AI can expand a lot as you said)?

Oh, on standard settings of course...with no "abuses" or "perfect" start locations.

In addition to what's already been said I want to point out that it's not really IMO 'true' civ playing to start a game thinking - okay I'm going to play a peaceful science game here. Civ is about playing the map. So while it's totally possible to get a peaceful, defensive, science or cultural victory on a deity pangaea map, that just isn't going to be a very smart idea on most maps you roll.

If you are in a vulnerable open position, with aggressive AIs nearby then it's just a dumb plan to try to bunker down and survive a game going for a defensive sci/cul victory. You're much better off playing aggressively in that spot.

In other pangaea starts you might be behind a mountain range, or on a peninsula, or some such semi/isolated position and then it might be a good plan to try for a defensive science victory. You're going to want to at least have some defensive terrain in your favour.

While you're practicing by all means start games off with the goal of learning more about science or cultural victories or whatever but always have in mind that the end goal is to be able to roll any map and react to the conditions in front of you with the best possible plan of action. I'm not trying to dictate how others should play the game, this is just my opinion on what civ is really all about.

While you are learning certain aspects of civ 5, for example a peaceful science game on pangaea, I don't see a problem with you re-rolling maps until you get a starting position that's favourable to your plan. All you're doing here is adding something to your playbook, perfecting one type of game that you may call upon in future when the conditions are right. When engaging in this type of experimentation I don't see anything wrong with rerolling.

Anyway, if you are set on playing a peaceful science game on deity pangaea most maps you get just aren't going to be suitable and you'll not learn much except how to get hosed .

 

[The Pilgrim]

I had pangaea deity science win when Genghis spawned really close to me and we shared borders for the whole game. Despite this fact he never DoWed. I beelined Iron Working early and upgraded several warriors plus built an archer or two and positioned them all on my border in defensible terrain. I don't know how much this ultimately mattered. Being expansionist himself, he's not one who'd get mad if you expand too fast early on, I think.
Generally, the more centered your start is, the less chances you have at peaceful victory. OCC is easier in the way that after a while you can actually sign a peace treaty (cheesy or not, at least it's possible), however having more than 1 city, AI will demand them and you're pretty much stuck in the permanent war. But as JeanBaptiste said, if you managed to survive through the early stages, it's becomes easier. After full first wave of well timed RA's your technological lead will give you advantage in military. IMO, this is the only way to do it. You cannot afford large army, the maintenance will kill you.

P.S. I've never faced Korea, but 24X for AI launch is unusually early. Most of the time you'll have ~30 turns extra.

 

[ImAPaladin]

Thanks for the reps ^^

@Devil I see...never seen it happen myself, though I only played a few games. And yep...they all get destroyed. I learned it the hard way when I had about 10 bombers in a city and that city got nuked lol

@snarz Yea, I agree with you. That's really how I should be playing, but the thing is, I'm one of those that actually care about achievements lol. It hasn't been long since I got the game, so I only have science and domination achievements unlocked regarding victory types(and I don't want to unlock em on lower difficulty now that I've gotten into Deity). Not obsessed with them, but I like to have them.

@Pilgfrim I see, thanks for the info. Although, bringing up Maddjinn's OCC Korea playthrough again, he almost died a few times by getting overwhelmed(he was going for culture win, so his science wasn't so high, I believe. Therefore, no higher tech military), so he didn't even have a chance to get normal peace treaties.

Just asking if it's possible, in ANY sort of situation. I suppose it's just best to play the game naturally and get those ahievements over the course of time.

but...those ahievements!! angh!!! must..have...them..soon...!

 

[JeanBaptiste]

Jean, you didn't have to use this 'trick' to get out of any wars? If you didn't, how did you deal with it? or you somehow managed to stay out of war?

If I remember correctly I was more or less at constant war against Germany. I don't think I had to use the "trick" in this game but on OCC you're often in a position when you have nothing to give away anyways. So maybe I gave Bismarck like 15 gold for peace at one point. He was under a lot of pressure at other fronts though and that probably made him more willing to give straight-up peace deals. Of course he would DoW me 10 turns later though.

I think the success of that game was that besides Germany I managed to have DoFs with the other close neighbors and thus avoiding wars.

 

[JeanBaptiste]

In addition to what's already been said I want to point out that it's not really IMO 'true' civ playing to start a game thinking - okay I'm going to play a peaceful science game here. Civ is about playing the map. So while it's totally possible to get a peaceful, defensive, science or cultural victory on a deity pangaea map, that just isn't going to be a very smart idea on most maps you roll.

Generally I absolutely agree with you but on OCC you kind of have to decide on your vc beforehand. It requires a lot of thought and timing.

 

[ImAPaladin]

I see, thank you for the information!
And yep...an exception to what snarz said would be a OCC, which I'm making an attempt at atm(maybe I'm being too rash here...). Having problems with getting wonders and growing at the same time though. Sometimes the AI gets GL or Stonehenge on 32, one time at 28...-_- Maybe it's a waste of effort for OCC? I gotta do more experiments or look up strategies...Only made like 2-3 attempts at it though, so maybe I was just unlucky, because I've seen people getting these wonders as late as turn 38-39, or they were the lucky ones?

 

[The Pilgrim]

@Pilgfrim I see, thanks for the info. Although, bringing up Maddjinn's OCC Korea playthrough again, he almost died a few times by getting overwhelmed(he was going for culture win, so his science wasn't so high, I believe. Therefore, no higher tech military), so he didn't even have a chance to get normal peace treaties

I know, I watched it. I was talking about your game, since you're trying to achieve a science victory. It should be easier than a culture for above reasons. At least theoretically. Every game is different.

I see, thank you for the information!
And yep...an exception to what snarz said would be a OCC, which I'm making an attempt at atm(maybe I'm being too rash here...). Having problems with getting wonders and growing at the same time though. Sometimes the AI gets GL or Stonehenge on 32, one time at 28...-_- Maybe it's a waste of effort for OCC? I gotta do more experiments or look up strategies...Only made like 2-3 attempts at it though, so maybe I was just unlucky, because I've seen people getting these wonders as late as turn 38-39, or they were the lucky ones?

They are lucky. In my current game GL was built on turn 42 (I could made it actually), means nothing. 31-32 is the average and 24-25 is the earliest date possible for deity AI to build GL. Its value is higher for Korea, obviously, but it's still a big big stretch. I wouldn't bother with neither GL nor Stonehenge. For science victory all you need is PT. This is the single most important wonder. Build HS, rush PT with engineer. Other wonders are less vital. I'm not even sure you need a ND. Maybe to allow selling all unique luxes as well, since you'll be permanently short on cash.

I'm clueless regarding OCC's but people report a good success rate with this strategy. You may want to try it and make adjustments needed for science VC. Notice that he skipped all early wonders but the Oracle which is less crucial for science.

And I agree with snarzberry that peaceful game on immortal/deity is very map and luck dependent. You may be the most skillful player out there but get a wrong map and wrong neighbors and you don't stand a chance.

 

[ImAPaladin]

Er, sorry, I guess I didn't state it clearly, I was asking about achieving any peaceful victory(forgot to mention diplomatic though) in any sort of situation on Deity, without OCC. For some reason, I assumed you were talking about OCC and said that, sorry for the confusion(didn't help that I used Maddjinn's OCC playthrough as an example...).
What I'm trying atm is OCC culture victory though, unrelated to the question.
About the build order you linked for me, I actually stumbled upon that thread earlier, and already took note of it.
Still, thanks! ^^

 

[The Pilgrim]

Oh well, nm then. All the posters combined covered all the options anyways.

 

[vexing]

it's not really IMO 'true' civ playing to start a game thinking - okay I'm going to play a peaceful science game here.

i always know the vc i'm going for before i roll a map. then again, i'm not opposed to rerolling if it's not going to work.

 

[snarzberry]

This comes back to a discussion we had once before. Some players value winning optimally over winning often, and some the other way about. For me, the better player is the one who wins more often and that means adaptability. If you had only one map to play and you had to win, what would be your strategy at the beginning of the game? Random civ, random map. Would you adapt to your surroundings or stick to a game plan from the get go?

Even when you start out thinking that you want to go for a science victory or whatever, if you're in a spot where you have to fight to stay alive you will of course. And if your initial wars are going well will you sometimes shift into a domination attempt? or do you reroll as soon as you see you won't be able to follow your plan towards an optimal peaceful victory?

The difference is fairly slim, as all good players will have a victory in mind from early in the game at least. I do prefer domination victory to the others so I start most games playing as if I'm going for a conquest victory but will often shift into something else if I think that's the best plan.

 

[Light Cleric]

on deity the AI is only limited by how much room they have. if you play a pangea with low sea level they can finish much sooner than an archipelago game, especially if one AI like greece or france becomes runaway.

sub 200 science is player doable.

Is this still possible? I was under the impression there had been too many nerfs to ICSing etc., but it'd be cool to see. I'm guessing Babylon/Korea made it possible again?

 

[Tabarnak]

Is this still possible? I was under the impression there had been too many nerfs to ICSing etc., but it'd be cool to see. I'm guessing Babylon/Korea made it possible again?

They certainly helps, but RAs are your friend for all civ played. Can be done with everyone.