whipping moai statues in low-hammer city

[guermantes]

Hi,
When I want to whip the MS in a hammer-poor city, I read in a whipping guide that I should wait until the building I want to whip is 1 turn from completion. I don't understand why? And it said something that I should whip buildings more expensive than 90 hammers as well. Why?

Thanks!

 

[Zindaras]

Hi,
When I want to whip the MS in a hammer-poor city, I read in a whipping guide that I should wait until the building I want to whip is 1 turn from completion. I don't understand why? And it said something that I should whip buildings more expensive than 90 hammers as well. Why?

Thanks!

That's related to the overflow mechanic. Overflow hammers get put into your next build, which has some advantages (I'm not really sure about the exact numbers but I'm not an expert on this). It doesn't mean that you should never whip anything that's not one turn from completion.

 

[vale]

If you are trying to whip overflow into a wonder you want to be whipping the turn before the whip cost would go down. 3->2 2->1 1->0 it doesn't matter all that much for the overflow you are getting. In a low hammer high food city the easiest method is repeated 3 pop whips of settlers. Ideally you would whip them on the turn before they hit 40 or more production. This will give you approximately 30 hammers into your wonder from overflow every time.

Basic idea is get a granary in place, then grow while slow building hammers into the wonder, switch to settler when about to grow from 6 to 7, 3 pop whip as described above and repeat. Chops into the wonder also help.

 

[Celebithil]

It really does not matter if you spent your time building (verb) a building (noun), or building Moai, does it? Yes, you will get a larger overflow if you wait a turn before whipping, but the larger overflow equals the extra production you had that turn, which would have gone into Moai regardless if you had whipped immediately.

On the other hand, it is a waste of whipping opportunities if you whip the turn after the whipping population cost goes down, so that is why you should whip the turn before that happens. But it is more of a deadline to whip before that time, than a rule that you should whip at exactly that time. (Though having the extra population as long as possible could be advantageous.)

Indeed to avoid hammer rot you would prefer to spend most time building Moai itself (and growing), and occasionally switching to another building which you whip after one turn of production. (Still waiting as long as possible to spend a longer period at the higher population.)

This is not valid if you are building settlers or workers. Whipping later will allow you to use food directly as hammers for Moai (instead of for the settler/worker). Then again, whipping is a efficient way to turn food into hammers, than settler/worker building, so this is not necessarily the best tactic.

Oh, and the advantage of whipping buildings for overflow into the wonders are twofold:
1. Firstly, this allows you to do "partial" whips: you don't have to whip the entire Moai at once; which allows you to whip at lower populations.
2. Whipping a wonder gets a penalty of only giving you half the hammers, and this method avoids that penalty.

 

[chopster]

Whipping wonders directly has a pentaly attached.
Whipping converts food to hammers.
Building settlers and workers can convert food to hammers.
Often Moai is built somewhere with lots of water tiles and at least one food resource - good food but often as few as one hammer.
Whipping settlers or workers for max overflow is an effective way to convert the resource you have (food) in to the resource you are poor on (hammers).

 

[Infantry#14]

Isnt whipping building more advantageous than whipping units? You get prod bonus from traits and organized religion.

 

[OJimiJam]

Well you can get prod bonus for settlers and workers. Importantly all that whipping a building with a trait bonus will get you is a lower pop whip for that building, the bonus applied to the overflow hammers is separate.

In the same way whip overflow into a wonder will be doubled by industrious.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Hi,
When I want to whip the MS in a hammer-poor city, I read in a whipping guide that I should wait until the building I want to whip is 1 turn from completion. I don't understand why? And it said something that I should whip buildings more expensive than 90 hammers as well. Why?

Thanks!

Guide is wrong, simple as that

Problem with whipping buildings is that you have little choice as far as the whipped item is concerned. A building can only be whipped once.

So... Normal speed, no production bonuses, a whip is 30 hammers.
A 1 pop whip will yield 29 overflow if the build is 1H from completion.
A 2 pop whip will yield 29 overflow if the build is 31H from completion.
A 3 pop whip will yield 29 overflow if the build is 61H from completion.

Let's say your city is hammer poor.
A good item to whip will cost a little more than a multiple of 30.
The idea, here, is that you don't want to queue an item and wait 15 turns until you can whip it. A good item can be inserted in the queue and whipped quick.

e.g.:
City is size 4, produces 1H/turn: you insert an axeman, wait 1 turn (axe is 1/35H), whip 2 populations: overflow is 26H (60H from the whip, minus 34 lacking to complete the build, equals 26H of overflow).
e.g.:
City is size 4, produces 5H/turn: insert swordsman, wait 1 turn (sword is 5/40H), whip 2 populations: overflow is 25H (60H from the whip, minus 35 lacking to complete the build, equals 25H of overflow).
e.g.:
City is size 6, produces 7H/turn: insert temple, wait 2 turns (temple is 14/80H), whip 3 populations: overflow is 24H (90H from the whip, minus 66 lacking to complete the build, equals 24H of overflow).
etc.
EDIT: At 50H, Longbow and Catapult are good whips for a city that produces more than 10H/turn: insert, wait 1 turn, whip 2 pops, receive 20+ overflow.
At 70H, Maceman is a good whip for a city that produces less than 10H/turn: insert, wait 1 turn, whip 3 pops, receive 20+ overflow.
etc.

Main advantage of whipping workers/settlers is that the surplus food is converted into hammers, so the base production of your city is increased.

EDIT: Now what happens for an item that costs a multiple of 30H?
e.g.:
City is size 6, produces 6H/turn: insert a Library, wait 4 turns (library is 24/90H), whip 3 populations: overflow is 24H (90H from the whip, minus 66 lacking to complete the build, equals 24H of overflow).
Conspicuously, while you converted 3pop into 90H from whipping the Library, the overflow is exactly the same as the hammers invested: for the sake of building something with overflow hammers, that would be completely useless.
(Compare that ratio with the above for more clarity... 1H into Axeman = 26H of overflow. NOT the same ratio.)

 

[Celebithil]

@BornInCantaloup

In your examples, why wait two turns before whipping the temple? Whipping the temple after one turn only nets you 17 overflow hammers (i.e. 7 less than in your example), but building Moai the second turn manually gives you precisely those 7 hammers.

If you want to keep a high population for that turn (i.e. the timing for growth/whip unhappiness purposes of your whip is optimized), you can also switch the production around: First turn build Moai, second turn build temple , third turn whip it.

Whipping after only 1 turn of production minimizes the time not spend building Moai and thus minimizes hammerrot. (Preferably you build Moai fast enough that that is not an issue, but still).

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Good catch! Waiting turns to maximize overflow only makes sense if you need the extra food (i.e. whipping is not desirable). It doesn't yield additional production.

 

[Htadus]

Hi,
When I want to whip the MS in a hammer-poor city, I read in a whipping guide that I should wait until the building I want to whip is 1 turn from completion. I don't understand why? And it said something that I should whip buildings more expensive than 90 hammers as well. Why?

Thanks!

I think BIC already said this but the guide is wrong. In the case of building MS in a hammer poor city, the best time is to whip it the moment you are able to whip. Then your city begin to reap the benefit of having built the MS. Sooner you have it (and assume there are enogh water tiles to make use of MS) more you will get in return.