Whitefire's Challenge - American Empire

[kbrennan7654]

i accept your challenge

 

[blizzrd]

Started up my American challenge last night. Firstly I tried the 3000BC unlocked start. After waiting for 301 turns (that did take a while) I spawned to find that Rome was about 6 techs ahead of me and everyone else, had already built the Statue of Liberty and controlled a lot of European land. They were Stable, showing no signs of imminent collapse, so I (reluctantly) restarted.

Second time I tried the 600AD start. This one was much better. Not many colonies in the Americas to deal with. By 1770s (where I had to stop last night) I had all of the US mainland territory and Peurto Rico. I had to stop myself from colonising Canada though on a number of occaisions. The French are slowly doing this, but if they're not careful my culture will prevent them from getting much more than Quebec.

 

[Panopticon]

Here I have to disagree. The day that the US agrees to adopt SI units of measurement they can begin to contemplate being associated with scientific research and innovation. Until that day, no.

You know the scientists do indeed use SI units? That's what matters.

This looks really interesting, I might try it when my projects are finished.

 

[kbrennan7654]

i plan to make an american 3000bc start as america. i will play a few turns tonight and if all goes well ill open my own thread about the game.

 

[Verily]

i plan to make an american 3000bc start as america. i will play a few turns tonight and if all goes well ill open my own thread about the game.

America is really hard in the 3000 BC start. Rome is nearly always powerful and advanced and rarely collapses. (Although the 3000 BC start is probably easier than the 600 AD start if you get lucky because Rome does collapse.)

 

[Good Sauce]

Here I have to disagree. The day that the US agrees to adopt SI units of measurement they can begin to contemplate being associated with scientific research and innovation. Until that day, no.

So by that logic Borneo has more right to claim to be a world leader in technology? LOL WUT?

 

[blizzrd]

So by that logic Borneo has more right to claim to be a world leader in technology? LOL WUT?

No. But by the same logic a nation which shuns alphabet is unlikely to be considered a world leader in literature.

Only if and when Americans come to their senses and drop imperial units measurement will I consider them to be scientifically innovative (which was the phrase used earlier, not leader in technology).

 

[chococid]

No. But by the same logic a nation which shuns alphabet is unlikely to be considered a world leader in literature.

Only if and when Americans come to their senses and drop imperial units measurement will I consider them to be scientifically innovative (which was the phrase used earlier, not leader in technology).

...because our scientists and actual educated people should be held in scorn because the populace is full of creationism-believing morons?

Newsflash: there are a lot of sane people in America who are sick of this country turning into a real-world enactment of Idiocracy. Don't scorn the people who are actually capable of rubbing together two brain cells simply because they're in physical proximity to puritanical morons who think that freedom means you have to do whatever the bible says.

I suppose you disregard Shakespeare's plays as "literature" because the populace was largely illiterate in his era?

 

[blizzrd]

...because our scientists and actual educated people should be held in scorn because the populace is full of creationism-believing morons?

America is a democracy, and educated people are not in the majority. This would appear to be a problem.

Newsflash: there are a lot of sane people in America who are sick of this country turning into a real-world enactment of Idiocracy.

If only they made voting compulsory then their voice might actually be heard then.

Don't scorn the people who are actually capable of rubbing together two brain cells simply because they're in physical proximity to puritanical morons who think that freedom means you have to do whatever the bible says.

I don't. As a scientist myself (I'm a hydrogeologist) I have pity for my colleagues in the US, not scorn.

But we started off talking about America as a whole, not just a select few. America as a whole is more ignorant than educated unfortunately. That may change, but currently it's not looking good.

I suppose you disregard Shakespeare's plays as "literature" because the populace was largely illiterate in his era?

No. But was England seen as a world leader in Literature at the time on the basis of this one man? No it wasn't. He was more akin to a world "wonder", rather than a nationwide phenomenon.

 

[chococid]

I don't. As a scientist myself (I'm a hydrogeologist) I have pity for my colleagues in the US, not scorn.

But we started off talking about America as a whole, not just a select few. America as a whole is more ignorant than educated unfortunately. That may change, but currently it's not looking good.

No. But was England seen as a world leader in Literature at the time on the basis of this one man? No it wasn't. He was more akin to a world "wonder", rather than a nationwide phenomenon.

Pretty much every *major* advancement comes from the elite few. Whether that be in science, technology, or the arts. The ancients had Archimedes, Pythagoras, Euclid, Homer... the Renaissance had Michelangelo, Leonardo, etc... the 20th century had people from Einstein to Elvis to Tolkien.

Sure, in civ they'd be considered the Great People. What about all the other inventions? In reality, Radio was not discovered by the government dedicating itself to the discovery of a new technology for 7-8 turns, it was discovered through the dedicated work of a select few. Same goes for nuclear power. Same goes for television. Same goes for the telephone.

It doesn't matter how low the vast, vast majority of society is- it's still only the intellectuals that matter when you're talking about what that society accomplishes. 90% of every society are the masses and nothing more- they do the bland grunt work, obey orders, and fumble through their daily lives- and the other 10% actually improve things.

Your profile says you're in Australia. Is it really any different there? Do the vast majority of Australian citizens really contribute to scientific knowledge? Do even one-quarter of them?
Or does the whole extent of the daily experience with the SI system for the majority come down to nothing more than buying liters of gas instead of gallons, and checking the speed limit in kilometers per hour rather than miles per hour?
Does it really mean Australia is more scientifically advanced, just because people go 16 km/h over the limit instead of 10 mph?
Is Australia even more educated than ignorant? Sure, you've got less loopy creationists, but I suspect the amount of people in each country who could calculate the trajectory of a parabola at launch- even ignoring air resistance and friction- is about the same, regardless of whether you give g as 32 feet per second in the USA or 9.81 meters per second in Australia.

The only real difference between societies- is how this group of intellectual elites are selected. The free countries allow people to partition themselves off into the mindless masses or to actually try to accomplish things.
I'll take that over the system of slavery, or Nobles and Peasants, or Castes, or any of the other "accident of birth" systems in which choice is eliminated.


The only place where Australia may be superior to America is in the view of the intellectuals by the masses. In America, anti-intellectualism is the norm by those who aren't intellectuals themselves. What's the view in Australia?

 

[blizzrd]

The only place where Australia may be superior to America is in the view of the intellectuals by the masses. In America, anti-intellectualism is the norm by those who aren't intellectuals themselves. What's the view in Australia?

We have plenty of red-necks here too, don't you worry. Queensland is full of them. Do a google search for Pauline Hansen and see what you can find, particularly her maiden speech to parliament. She was elected to our House of Representatives about 10 years ago representing a part of outback Queensland. My did she have some really uneducated things to say.

Pauline Hansen aside, I sometimes do think that I am very lucky to be in a country where a good education is currently the norm.

 

[onedreamer]

Here I have to disagree. The day that the US agrees to adopt SI units of measurement they can begin to contemplate being associated with scientific research and innovation. Until that day, no.

I'd be happy with anglosaxons understanding the meaning of AM and PM and stop inverting noon with midnight. That creates much more confusion than using different system of measurements since they are still correct.

 

[chococid]

I'd be happy with anglosaxons understanding the meaning of AM and PM and stop inverting noon with midnight. That creates much more confusion than using different system of measurements since they are still correct.

I can never remember which is which, so I simply refuse to put "12 AM" or "12 PM" in writing and simply write "noon" or "12 noon".

Frankly, the AM/PM system is ******ed and we should all go to 24 hour time.
Whether you actually go from 23:59 to 24:00 or 0:00 I don't much care, because there's still no ambiguity whatsoever.
But noooo, that would be too hard.

 

[blizzrd]

What about all the other inventions?

The social environment has quite a bit to do with 'sparks' that inventors/discoverors have. Occaisionally inventors can achieve success in spite of the regime that they live under, but more often it is a symbiotic process.

The fact is that scientists today in America are labouring with working in a different (measurement) system to the one that they live in. That is counter-productive. It won't stop good scientists from occaisionally becoming great and discovering great things, but the situation is not doing anything to help their chances.

An extreme example is the Khmer Rouge (sp?) in Cambodia some years back. Their regime took aim at intellectuals, killing, torturing and so on. Anyone with a brain and the ability to leave did so. This didn't prevent some intelligient people from continuing to live in Cambodia and do good scientific work, but it really wasn't good times. This is as I said, an extreme example. But America's stubborn insistence that "they are right" on the matter of imperial measurements has some parallels just the same.

Same goes for nuclear power.

Actually, governments did a lot to assist with the research into nuclear power. US, UK, USSR, they all give these scientists a huge assist (even if they might have kidnapped them to bring them to their country initially).

Your profile says you're in Australia. Is it really any different there? Do the vast majority of Australian citizens really contribute to scientific knowledge?

I think we have a pretty high level of education (I don't have any figures) relative to a lot of other countries. There is a large proportion of university-educated people in our society.

Or does the whole extent of the daily experience with the SI system for the majority come down to nothing more than buying liters of gas instead of gallons, and checking the speed limit in kilometers per hour rather than miles per hour?

It makes calculations easier, which while they may not appreciate it, does assist in their daily lives. I have an example from my experience.

I do a lot of work with drilling contractors to install groundwater monitoring wells. We commonly drill boreholes up to 30 m (~90ft) looking for groundwater. Drilling involves connecting many lengths of auger flights together sequentially as the hole gets deeper.

Unfortunately, all of the drill rigs I can work with were manufactured and then imported from the US. This means that each auger flight is 5 feet long, rather than 1.5 metres long. The difference is not much, but 5 feet = 1.54 m, not 1.50m. That 4cm (1.5 in) starts to add up when you have connected 15 auger flights together and are trying to work out what depth you have reached with the drilling.

Now drilling contractors are not university educated. It is painful trying to work with them to establish how far you have drilled and then allow for a bunch of 4cm errors in that calculation. I usually do it for them.

My point is that the driller's life (and mine) would infact be better if the auger flights were made in metric lengths and not imperial lengths. This isn't going to spark a new invention, but it would make our work progress that little bit faster.

 

[blizzrd]

IFrankly, the AM/PM system is ******ed and we should all go to 24 hour time. But noooo, that would be too hard.

I think that was the reason that the US administration gave for not adopting SI units.

 

[chococid]

Well, you have to realize, there's a huge amount of inertia.

I'm almost positive that if the US had no standard system of measurement at all today, and both systems were presented, the metric system would be widely accepted within weeks.

The problem is that there's all the old stuff to deal with. People would rather deal with a bunch of small problems that take a minute here and a minute there than devote a significant continuous block of time to solve the problem once and for all.

This is true of anything, not just the measurement issue.

With measurement specifically, the architectural field runs into a huge number of problems- if an architect starts designing metric, they're screwed because the materials are all in imperial. If a construction supplier starts to provide metric, they're screwed because the architects are all designing imperial.
Chicken. Egg. And the whole country (and the rest of the world) suffers because of it.

(In America, the architects and the construction companies are separate. This isn't necessarily the case in some other fields, and you will see companies that manufacture their own designs using metric on occasion.)

But hey, we buy 2-liters of coke!
Gee, I wonder why...

 

[blizzrd]

Well, you have to realize, there's a huge amount of inertia.

Indeed. But that is what good governance is for. To get past that inertia and to get things moving.

The problem is that there's all the old stuff to deal with.

You must realise that Australia, UK and many others bit that bullet though some 30-odd years ago and converted. Sure, people find the change difficult. Some people find any change difficult. But this particular change has so many benefits going for it, that it is worth that pain.

But hey, we buy 2-liters of coke!

I didn't know that, cool. But you should of course be buying two litres of coke....

 

[onedreamer]

in Europe everyone was afraid that old people would be screwed by Euro. Instead I didn't see that happen

btw AM and PM is quite easy to grasp. Given that meridie is the middle of the day, A = antea = before. P = postea = after. Noon is the 12th hour before the middle of the day (12 AM) and midnight is the 12th hour past the middle of the day (12 PM). But to my knowledge anglosaxons have it the other way around >_<

 

[blizzrd]

The 12 AM/PM problem arises from the need to describe 12:01 in the morning as 12:01 AM and hence by inference just before that is also called 12:00 AM.

I agree with the earlier post. I never use either 12 AM or 12 PM and always write 12 noon or 12 midnight.

 

[Muz]

Actually, I found "Foreign star rating of 4" to be the most unlogical requirement of all. Since when did America ever have good international relations? (But arguably, all the countries that they have bad relations with are 'independents' in RFC XD

Hmm.. I'm tempted to join the debate . It'll take to long to reply to all the individual comments.. but I'll say this. Measurement is hardly an issue in science. I do plenty of stuff that involves both metric and imperial and I have little trouble switching between the two. It doesn't inhibit scientific progress anymore than writing those annoying reports.

America functions much like the Roman Empire. Heck, you could probably even switch the Unique Powers of both in RFC and they'd work. America is an extremely powerful empire, practically its own continent. As such, it's very isolated and they think they could do whatever they want. They have their own language ("American"), their own culture, their own isolated news (CNN), and as such, they're very resistant to absorb a foreign measurement system. I don't blame them. They started with no culture at all and have to develop their own. It's their way of being different.

As for the "America as a leader in the realm of research and innovation", consider this.. most of the 'top universities' in rankings are American. Also consider that in the original Civilization 4, the national wonder was called "Oxford University", not Harvard

Then again, America did do the Apollo program and the Internet. They invented Google. They have the highest number of patents every year. Their universities are so loaded with applicants that some of the top ones have an acceptance rate of below 10%. All that with the handicap of so many people being stupid and with half the country using an obsolete measurement system